Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

[Shasta]

Don’t forget Mexico. The Reverend Jesse Jackson recently said on MSNBC that the 500 plus murders in Chicago in 2012 were attributable to firearms smuggled 1,300 miles from Mexico to the Windy City. Because of soaring firearms prices in the US, the 'run on firearms' in retail gun stores seen over the past few years, and impending stricter gun laws, many cartels are shipping firearms into the US. Los Caballeros Templarios and Cartel de Jalisco Nueva Generacion are buying firearms from sources in the former Soviet Union and China to satisfy criminal demand in the US. An unfortunate result of tighter gun laws… the criminals will still be able to get their guns.

The president of Mexico asked Obama to control guns at gun shows because too many criminals in the drug wars were being purchased with no background checks.

I posted the link a few pages back.

[Shasta]

And you know where the criminals get the guns in California? Gun shows. Know how I know that? My cousin, a Seargeant in the LAPD, who has been with the LAPD for over 20 years.

Know what would help fix that? Mandatory background checks on all gun sales.

I should also point out that my cousin is a HUGE gun nut and an extreme Republican. Just saying.....

The truth is the truth no matter what your party affiliation.

[Mary19]

In my previous post I wrote simply, it should have been simple..I HATE IT WHEN I FIND TYPO'S..sorry I'm done now.

[Todash]

I've heard this a number of times. Is there any way of quantifying whether the statistics would be even worse if there were not such strict gun laws in place?

Considering that the chief of police there said they confiscate many more times illegal guns than New York (seven, I think), my *guess* (and it is just a guess) is yes. It's just that there are still tons of illegal guns on the streets there.

[exzel]

The president of Mexico asked Obama to control guns at gun shows because too many criminals in the drug wars were being purchased with no background checks.

I posted the link a few pages back.

Shasta, let me go on record as stating I am in favor of requiring background checks at gun shows.

Yes the Mexican President asked Obama to control guns at gun shows. He also decried the efforts of our border states to control our borders with Mexico. The cartels, with apparently operate with much impunity, are sending guns into the US… just ask your cousin. Perhaps the controlling factions there only want criminal activities to travel in one direction… NORTH.

We already have laws aimed at stopping criminal activities traversing between the two countries. Perhaps the better course of action would be for our governments to enforce the existing laws.

And second amendment proponents come from both political parties. It just seems to me one party is more keen on defending our constitutional rights than the other.

[Moderator]

Perhaps the better course of action would be for our governments to enforce the existing laws.

A first step might be to stop putting restrictions on them from doing so.

Restrictions which effectively hamstring the ATF's ability to enforce laws were introduced by former Rep. Todd Tiahrt (R-KS) who was provided the language for the restrictions by the NRA. As quoted by Rep. Tiahrt, "I wanted to make sure I was fulfilling the needs of my friends who are firearms dealers. NRA Officials were helpful in making sure I had my bases covered." Congress passed the amendments introduced by Congressman Tiahrt and that legislation is now known as the Tiahrt Amendments.

What this has meant:

It restricts cities, states, and police from accessing ATF data regarding where illegal guns are coming from, who buys them, and how they get trafficked across state lines and into communities .

Requires the FBI to destroy certain background check records within 24 hours which greatly hinders the ability to use those records to help solve crimes or identify gun buyers with criminal histories who were mistakenly approved.

Blocks ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct inventory checks to detect loss and theft and which then hampers the ability to prosecute gun dealers who may be illegally selling guns.

ATF cannot inspect gun dealers more often than once in every 12 month period.

The Tiahrt Amendment restrictions also prevent the ATF from disclosing crime gun data to the press, advocacy organizations and scholars who are studying the problems of gun and crime and in some cases will also prevent them from testifying before Congress with details about its enforcement activities related to dealers with high numbers of crime gun traces. Some of the data that had been collected prior to the amendments that can no longer be shared included information that:

the illegal market is largely supplied by the rapid diversion of guns from a relatively few licensed gun dealers;

illegal guns in states with strong gun laws largely originate in states with weak laws, while illegal guns in states with weak laws come from in-state dealers;

laws regulating the legal market can help stem the flow of guns into the illegal market; and

certain kinds of guns are disproportionately associated with criminal activity

[hossenpepper]

I just took a tour of Joe Bob's Illegal and Criminal Gun Factory where they make all these illegal guns from which good citizens need more guns to defend themselves. If we could just get that shut down then we wouldn't need to have this debate, right? They did have good coffee in the lounge though...

Oh haha, just kidding, because that place DOESN'T EXIST. Illegal guns were once "legal guns". Guess what, more legal guns means more illegal guns. If you don't get that very basic point or want to argue how that is wrong, then please return to lala land where illogic flourishes with many unicorn and monster truck rides.

More guns = more violence perpetrated with guns. Just like if we let more wild animals roams the streets, death by tiger and bear would increase. Car wrecks weren't a problem until there were cars. Until the "gun nut" sect understands that basic premise this debate is just utterly pointless.

[shipwreked]

the proverbial "elephant in the room" in all of this is that the spirit of the second amendment is not limited to protecting ourselves from bad guys, but also the potential need to confront a government that has gone bad. This is the reason they're not supposed to keep records.

[exzel]

A first step might be to stop putting restrictions on them from doing so.

Restrictions which effectively hamstring the ATF's ability to enforce laws were introduced by former Rep. Todd Tiahrt (R-KS) who was provided the language for the restrictions by the NRA. As quoted by Rep. Tiahrt, "I wanted to make sure I was fulfilling the needs of my friends who are firearms dealers. NRA Officials were helpful in making sure I had my bases covered." Congress passed the amendments introduced by Congressman Tiahrt and that legislation is now known as the Tiahrt Amendments.

What this has meant:

It restricts cities, states, and police from accessing ATF data regarding where illegal guns are coming from, who buys them, and how they get trafficked across state lines and into communities .

Requires the FBI to destroy certain background check records within 24 hours which greatly hinders the ability to use those records to help solve crimes or identify gun buyers with criminal histories who were mistakenly approved.

Blocks ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct inventory checks to detect loss and theft and which then hampers the ability to prosecute gun dealers who may be illegally selling guns.

ATF cannot inspect gun dealers more often than once in every 12 month period.

The Tiahrt Amendment restrictions also prevent the ATF from disclosing crime gun data to the press, advocacy organizations and scholars who are studying the problems of gun and crime and in some cases will also prevent them from testifying before Congress with details about its enforcement activities related to dealers with high numbers of crime gun traces. Some of the data that had been collected prior to the amendments that can no longer be shared included information that:

the illegal market is largely supplied by the rapid diversion of guns from a relatively few licensed gun dealers;

illegal guns in states with strong gun laws largely originate in states with weak laws, while illegal guns in states with weak laws come from in-state dealers;

laws regulating the legal market can help stem the flow of guns into the illegal market; and

certain kinds of guns are disproportionately associated with criminal activity

Some very good observations ther Ms. Mod.

But perhaps the main thing we should be doing to shut down the majority of numerous criminal activities between the two countries would be to protect the border.

[hossenpepper]

And second amendment proponents come from both political parties. It just seems to me one party is more keen on defending our constitutional rights than the other.

Yes conservatives care. You're so right about that. Don't infringe rights unless it's for gay marriage or a woman's uterus.

Explosive death sticks, not a problem. Gays getting married or abortions...huge societal woe.