Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

[Todash]

Gun control may help the issue but then again it may not....

Look at the Oklahoma City bombing, the explosion killed 168 people, including 19 children in the day care center on the second floor, and injured 450 others and there was not one firearm used, everything that was used to make the bomb is very easily accessible.

So my I guess my point is that if someone is set on causing chaos, destruction and loss of life they are going to do it whether they use a firearm or not.

Yes. This is true. Guns just make it way, way, way easier. And more guns = more violence. Those are the stats. It's just how it is.

Take mass killings, for example: the Oklahoma bombing required collaboration, a certain amount of know-how, quite a bit of work, and was risky for the perpetrators. There's a reason it stands on its own in our history. On the other hand, it's pretty easy for a lone person to get his hands on some guns and ammo, make a plan that doesn't involve a single other person, carry it out, and take the chicken exit at the end. McVeigh was a terrorist who committed his acts for political reasons. Most homicides are committed by friends, family, and acquaintances in the heat of the moment, and mass shootings are usually the work of someone who is disturbed and committing the acts for purely emotional reasons.

Shootings are instant, deadly, and cannot generally be stopped by law enforcement, nor are they often stopped by bystanders. Coordinated bomb plantings have a much higher chance of being intercepted before anyone is hurt.

I'm not saying there isn't a valid argument for allowing people to own guns. I'm just saying that "anything can be a weapon" isn't it. There's a reason that the armed forces, law enforcement, and National Guard are issued guns rather than knives, ropes, or small bombs as primary weapons. It's the same reason people use guns to hunt and for self-defense: they are marvelously, death-dealingly effective. If they weren't, no one would care if guns were outlawed (not that that's a reasonable likelihood; I'm just saying). Because after all, anything can be a weapon.

[Todash]

No need to do that and if I made you feel unwelcome, I apologize as well. It's partly my frustration at hearing that sort of thinking being used as a justification to not have any gun controls after each and every tragedy. And then the next time there's another one, it comes up all over again and nothing is done...again...and again...and more innocent people die.

Same here. I mean, you ARE right, JellybeanJay. Gun control won't fix everything. You could take away every gun in the world and people would still kill each other. The point is, can we reduce the number of victims of violence? I think so. I'm not naive enough to think we can stop it altogether, but isn't making it less of a problem a reasonable, worthwhile goal?

I am in the same boat as Ms. Mod. I see this argument so often, and it drives me a little nuts because you can't have it both ways. Either it's important to be able to own a gun BECAUSE they are so effective at aiding self-defense, hunting, etc., OR it doesn't matter if you outlaw guns because anything can be used as a weapon. Like I said, there are valid, strong arguments for allowing gun ownership. I just don't happen to think the "anything can be used as a weapon" is a particularly convincing one.

[Moderator]

Has anyone heard this new story out about the Portland shooting?

There's a guy saying he had a gun, he went to shoot the gunman but didn't because there was a person behind the gunman. But the gunman saw him and was so afraid of getting shot that.....well, he went and shot himself.

Can someone please explain that to me?

http://www.athenstalks.com/shooting-portland-mall-2-killed

Unfortunately I can no longer find the site (the gun site) that explains that the shooter stopped shooting people because he so feared for his life that he went and committed suicide.

Ha! Wait. I found it:

http://www.easybakegunclub.com/blog/1968/Concealed-Carry-Hero-at-Portland-Mall---The-Full-S.html

Personally, I think that's bullsh!t. And reading the article, the guy ran away and shot himself in another area of the mall, not while he was still in the presence of the other person who had a gun. Even when it's a suicide by cop, IMO they do this still thinking that they're the ones in control. In other words, it wouldn't be about being afraid he was going to be shot, it would be I'm going out on my terms. Of course that's just total speculation on my part just as it is of the person who wrote the article cited that it was because he knew someone else had a gun.

[Todash]

Has anyone heard this new story out about the Portland shooting?

There's a guy saying he had a gun, he went to shoot the gunman but didn't because there was a person behind the gunman. But the gunman saw him and was so afraid of getting shot that.....well, he went and shot himself.

Can someone please explain that to me?

http://www.athenstalks.com/shooting-portland-mall-2-killed

Unfortunately I can no longer find the site (the gun site) that explains that the shooter stopped shooting people because he so feared for his life that he went and committed suicide.

Ha! Wait. I found it:

http://www.easybakegunclub.com/blog/1968/Concealed-Carry-Hero-at-Portland-Mall---The-Full-S.html

This actually makes complete sense to me. He was planning to off himself anyway, but it probably never crossed his mind that anyone might even consider fighting back. The way it played out in his mind, I imagine, is that he would blaze through the mall gunning people down, then commit suicide at the end of his spree. It was never, ever, ever in the plan to be taken out by someone else. So seeing that that was a possibility, he probably decided that it was better to prematurely end his spree as planned rather than become a victim himself and give up his power.

I'm actually really disturbed that I have this level of understanding of the shooter's thoughts and motives, but I'm pretty sure I'm on target.

[~Ally~]

It's partly my frustration at hearing that sort of thinking being used as a justification to not have any gun controls after each and every tragedy. And then the next time there's another one, it comes up all over again and nothing is done...again...and again...and more innocent people die.

I found this quote from John Oliver very interesting:



It certainly made me think and I'm not even American!

[johnjohn2069]

I live in CT and this has ripped my heart out of my chest, I pray for the victims of this evil act, I pray for the families of the victims, for the town of Newtown it will take a very long time to come out from this shadow.

I have 22 years in the Army and I am very famliar with this rifle. The AR-15 is a M-16 and they are both made to kill humans PERIOD!!! The military ammo for this weapon tumbles apon striking the target which causes all kinds of internal damage. There is no need for this weapon to be in the hands of your "average joe". there is no need for a 30 round mag, If you are dumb enough to hunt with this rifle and you need 30 rounds to take down game.... then maybe you shouldn't even be hunting to begin with.

Could this shooting been provented??? Who knows.... but I think schools need to take a long hard look at security.... And i know with the way money is tight they can't put armed guards in all the schools in the US. But who really wants that for your kids???

schools may want to look at who they already have teaching in their system and find the Ex-Vet or Ex-law enforment , Training these teachers to carry and shoot and have them armed when they are in school.

One weapon in the hands of teacher on friday could have prevented or minimized the killing that went on.

Hell the piece of **** gunman off'd himself at the 1st sight of police, most of these low life's that do this type of thing have no balls what so ever (thats why they do it in the 1st place) but if confronted they would have a much hard time carring out their plan.

I know many feel that guns is not the answer to guns but at least it will even the playing field

could one gun in the hands of a well trainied teacher stopped this..... Most likey no

But i would be willing bet that there would'nt be 26 funerals to attend

[Todash]

Personally, I think that's bullsh!t. And reading the article, the guy ran away and shot himself in another area of the mall, not while he was still in the presence of the other person who had a gun. Even when it's a suicide by cop, IMO they do this still thinking that they're the ones in control. In other words, it wouldn't be about being afraid he was going to be shot, it would be I'm going out on my terms. Of course that's just total speculation on my part just as it is of the person who wrote the article cited that it was because he knew someone else had a gun.

I dunno, Ms. Mod ... I don't think concealed carry is such a hot idea, but I think the guy's story has a pretty good chance of being true. People do commit suicide by cop, but I don't think that was ever this guy's plan. Remember, we are not talking about someone who is being totally sensible and logical here.

[Shasta]

Personally, I think that's bullsh!t. And reading the article, the guy ran away and shot himself in another area of the mall, not while he was still in the presence of the other person who had a gun. Even when it's a suicide by cop, IMO they do this still thinking that they're the ones in control. In other words, it wouldn't be about being afraid he was going to be shot, it would be I'm going out on my terms. Of course that's just total speculation on my part just as it is of the person who wrote the article cited that it was because he knew someone else had a gun.

Yeah, I think the whole thing is pretty nuts. I honestly think that the gun propaganda people are trying to head off the "see, guns don't prevent things like this from happening" arguments in any way they can. The story just doesn't make and sense!

[JellybeanJay]

No need to do that and if I made you feel unwelcome, I apologize as well. It's partly my frustration at hearing that sort of thinking being used as a justification to not have any gun controls after each and every tragedy. And then the next time there's another one, it comes up all over again and nothing is done...again...and again...and more innocent people die.

You could NEVER make me feel unwelcome! I just honestly don't know enough to put together an intelligent train of thought

[atomicinchworm]

With the OK City bombing, something did come out of that. That kind of fertilizer and a lot of potential bomb components are regulated.

Todash was on a watch list, for example, for buying potassium permanganate. Which is an explosive component, or an excellent anti-bacterial for fish. If I went and bought ten guns, it wouldn't raise any flags. That's a problem to me.

I think it is silly to demand all guns be destroyed; guns are way too prevalent in our culture. I don't think it is unreasonable to require guns to be as heavily licensed and for the owner to show competence as a car. And maybe taxing them to hell. I'd be ok with that as well.


Speaking of Trayvon Martin, have you heard of that other teen in Florida who was shot and killed? He was unarmed and killed because he was in a car playing loud music. The guy who shot him got in an argument with the teens over the volume of the music, said he saw a gun, and shot into the car. Jordan Davis was 17. The kids thought the gun was fake at first. They were in actuality unarmed; there was no gun in the car.

Is this **** ok? Did an argument over bloody music at a gas station demand that kind of force? Or did a racist man with a gun on him, see a bunch of black kids and made the assumption that they were going to harm him? (You can't tell me if the kids were white he would have had the same reaction.)

I'll be ok with conceal and carry if you can guarantee this stuff won't happen.