Shovin' cats back in their sacks?

[PatInTheHat]

This is the very first thread I've started here on the SKMB and I couldn't be more proud.!
Well that's actually a big fat lie, because I swore to myself I'd never start one...no I don't know why, it was just a thing if ya know what I mean...I'm such freakin' wimpy & weak wussy.
Oh well, I guess the cats out of the bag, and as I liked to say on the midway, No Whiners Or Crybabies...so let's get on with the show!

I'll begin with this Arizona cat that everyone who hasn't recently woken from a coma in the last say two, three hours, has heard of.
Now this isn't about what I see as a law proudly written, at least in large part, by a "birther" named Kris Kobach, as a what I see as an obviously discriminating and racist "answer" to Arizona's illegal immigrants, not to mention some seriously short sighted political hackery.
It's about the potential longer term unintended consequences (the badly misguided or even out and out taking advantage of an already bad situation kind) things of this nature & magnitude always brings to the consequential table.
And yes I did say always...I can't help it because those consequences can't be helped, and I defy anyone to show any big legal decision in history that doesn't have them...try a small one first and see how that goes.
An relatively small example would be how helmet laws, written by insurance companies and their lobbiests, led to benign seat belt laws, written by same, on the promise by most state legislators they would never be made proactive.
Which eventually led to road checks/blocks in many, possibly most states, which has now led to states amending those laws once again, to allow police to actually pull you over in what are often called "Click It or Ticket" campaigns.
Now I don't care what your personal feelings are about helmets or seat belt laws, that's not the point here, it's about how it starts with a little "a" which leads to say an "F", which then leads to the big "U" and if U weren't paying attention, one day, it just wazzzz...uhh, is.
That seat belt stuff started back in the George Bush the First era, when his administration was having a high time giving insurance companies all kinds of carte blanche in all kinds of areas (if you remember, it went national so easily, only because of the threat of the feds holding back highway monies..if your old enough to remember), and this is where we've ended up in this particular area...so far..at this particular moment, and all predicated on how these laws were never going to be allowed to grow into big boy pants by allowing them the ability to give people misdemeanor moving violation/criminal records....nobody thought to get that in writing I suppose..saving the world one traumatic head injury at a time makes forgetful I guess..oh the irony huh?
This one example comes to mind, simply because my state has just installed a big reminder sign within eyesight of my property, on how now I'm a common criminal, and not just an common idiot, if I don't click my seat belt.
Just imagine what kind of a blood sucking monster a law like Arizona's giant international cluster#%$* will grow into if allowed...and how do you stop it?
You know, now that that cats out of the bag!

Other states, like I'm guessing Texas, will probably start talking the same kind of smack if it's not squashed quickly...what about some conservative non border states following suit?
The implications are bone freakkin' chilling in my butt clenched opinion.
The serious far left liberal agenda may just jump in the wagon too, with a national ID program, though I don't know where the line between liberal & conservative agendas are anymore, when it comes to our civil rights and IDs and ID'ing us saps...uhh citizens.
So can this cat be shoved back into the sack?
Do you want it to?
(if not, I sure would like to hear good reason why it doesn't scare the ever lovin' crap outta ya)
Got any examples on what kind of consequences you think will be waiting for us in the near future...even if it is struck down (cats already outta that bag remember?).
Oh, & paper, plastic, or do you prefer burlap...oh wow man, that's so old school cool!

[TBlack]

Ya never forget your first thread Pat!

[Tery]

I believe that this law will be found unconstitutional. Law suits are being readied as we type. Should be interesting..

Now, as to the whinging we are hearing from certain members of the GOP, "Arizona did this because the Feds didn't/wouldn't...wahhh" It is curious that the very people who are saying this, turn around and in the next breath say, "Oh but we can't do anything about immigration reform NOW. We're not ready." The Federal government, whom they blame this lack of movement on, includes these same people! The Dems don't really want to tackle it at the moment, either. They have finance reform in their sights - and of course the GOP is fighting that tooth and nail. As they will with immigration reform, no doubt.

This is not an easy problem to solve. We can't just put up a fence along the entire border - did you know that 1/3 of Arizona's income is from Mexican tourism and shopping? - and we can't grab every brown person we see and toss them over said border. Yet, there is a need to keep immigrants to a reasonable number. This won't be easy. But racist laws and profiling won't make it any easier.

[Sigmund]

PITH
are you saying that this law could lead to corruption? Maybe police corruption, where police won't bust you as an illegal alien if you pay them money? That seems possible.

Police corruption is a complex phenomenon, which does not
readily submit to simple analysis. It is a problem that has and will
continue to affect us all, whether we are civilians or law enforcement
officers. Since its beginnings,

may aspects of policing have changed;
however, one aspect that has remained relatively unchanged is the
existence of corruption

. An examination of a local newspaper or any
police-related publication on any given day will have an article about
a police officer that got busted committing some kind of corrupt act.
Police corruption has increased dramatically with the illegal cocaine
trade, with officers acting alone or in-groups to steal money from
dealers or distribute cocaine themselves. Large groups of corrupt
police have been caught in New York, New Orleans, Washington, DC, and
Los Angeles.
http://www.oppapers.com/essays/Police-Corruption/64306

I was wondering about that. However illegal aliens, not being able to work legally, would not have a lot of money unless they are doing something illegal like selling drugs, prostitution etc. So police corruption/bribery would be of known criminals that they choose to not only NOT arrest but turn a blind eye to the crimes. Much like what happened during Prohibition and with the Mafia back in the day.

I am also curious about why the illegals are here. They don't have documentation so they can't get a legal job and make money. Is it that they are working illegally? If they are working illegally would I be correct to assume they are not getting paid minimum wage- which is illegal? Additionally, to hire illegal aliens is against the law, isn't it? So, the people who are hiring them and not paying them minimum wage are commitiing a crime also, correct? I figure if illegals did not get jobs ergo: no money they would go elsewhere.

But I guess there are ways to get around that. You don't have to be a criminal illegal to make money. Big corporation get in on the profit of not paying minimum wage, too

Wal-Mart knowingly hired Illegal Aliens

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/04/national/main581731.shtml

They got caught and fined but I wonder how many stores, businesses and how many years this has gone on and will continue to go on 'cause they are still making big bucks and very healthy in the stock market,

Just some thoughts

[Sigmund]

BTW
Illegal immigrants are not all Mexicans.

Nearly Half of Illegal Immigrants Overstay Visas
　
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5485917

And apparently the government has known this for a while now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vePxREijhsY

It’s been going on ten years! And NOW this Republican is asking this President, that would be Obama, to fix it.

[Tery]

At least one Arizona Sheriff will refuse to enforce this law. He says, rightly, that it puts law enforcement officers in a horrible position. If they do what the law says, they are open to lawsuits from people wrongly detained. If they don't do it, they can be sued by people who don't think they are enforcing the law to their satisfaction. You read that right - anyone can sue any police department, state patrol, et.al. who they feel is not pursuing this law to the degree they think they should.

The sheriff of Pima county will refuse to apply this law should it go into effect:

Dupnik called SB 1070 "racist," "disgusting," and "unnecessary," in an interview with Tucson's ABC affiliate, KGUN.
The sheriff says his officers won't participate in the crackdown because it forces deputies to profile while they patrol the areas surrounding Tucson.
Dupnik said he won't let illegal immigrants go free, either.
"We're going to keep doing what we've been doing all along," Dupnik said. "We're going to stop and detain these people for the Border Patrol."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...#ixzz0mVHolT3k

[PatInTheHat]

Ya never forget your first thread Pat!

I know I should call, or maybe even send something special, possibly a tasty bucket of chicken perhaps, or do you think that might be considered too strong..intentions wise that is
I don't want to give the wrong impression..I mean it was just the one time.
Well you just never know do ya, it could lead to something more,...though I may need to take things slow is what I'm sayin'.


Okay here's something I admit to being surprised about, and I certainly will be more than happy to eat a little crow (and I hope I'll actually end up eating a lot of it...Mmm yummy!).
The sheriff of Pima county Arizona, Sheriff Clarence Dupnic, has said he wants nothing to do with this law, he said he won't enforce it and finds it "racist, disgusting and unnecessary", not to mention unconstitutional.
He thinks the provision where as any citizen can sue any law enforcement officer for not enforcing the law (perhaps any law, I'm not sure) is a damned if we do, damned if we don't, bunch of bull*&#% (maybe I'm paraphrasing the end).
Further he said, after well over thirty years in law enforcement, many (or maybe even most) of those as a sheriff, he doesn't know what this laws term "reasonable suspicion" is supposed to mean.
This coming from the big cheese county cop based in Tuscon, a huge corridor in illegal activity of all kinds.
He had other stuff to say about the states capitol mishandling of state money, possibly having something to do with this at least in part, as well as the "feel good" attitude it may be bringing the politicos to have done it.
I was impressed, and just a little blown away, by this not wanting this "tool" coming from law enforcement, and his rather strong comments...I mean come on, they really aren't too infamous for rocking big boats.
Big time props to Sheriff Clarence Dupnic, a genuine bona fide leader!
Hopefully many more will follow his lead.

[PatInTheHat]

PITH
are you saying that this law could lead to corruption? Maybe police corruption, where police won't bust you as an illegal alien if you pay them money? That seems possible.

Police corruption is a complex phenomenon, which does not
readily submit to simple analysis. It is a problem that has and will
continue to affect us all, whether we are civilians or law enforcement
officers. Since its beginnings,

may aspects of policing have changed;
however, one aspect that has remained relatively unchanged is the
existence of corruption

. An examination of a local newspaper or any
police-related publication on any given day will have an article about
a police officer that got busted committing some kind of corrupt act.
Police corruption has increased dramatically with the illegal cocaine
trade, with officers acting alone or in-groups to steal money from
dealers or distribute cocaine themselves. Large groups of corrupt
police have been caught in New York, New Orleans, Washington, DC, and
Los Angeles.
http://www.oppapers.com/essays/Police-Corruption/64306

I was wondering about that. However illegal aliens, not being able to work legally, would not have a lot of money unless they are doing something illegal like selling drugs, prostitution etc. So police corruption/bribery would be of known criminals that they choose to not only NOT arrest but turn a blind eye to the crimes. Much like what happened during Prohibition and with the Mafia back in the day.

I am also curious about why the illegals are here. They don't have documentation so they can't get a legal job and make money. Is it that they are working illegally? If they are working illegally would I be correct to assume they are not getting paid minimum wage- which is illegal? Additionally, to hire illegal aliens is against the law, isn't it? So, the people who are hiring them and not paying them minimum wage are commiting a crime also, correct? I figure if illegals did not get jobs ergo: no money they would go elsewhere.

But I guess there are ways to get around that. You don't have to be a criminal illegal to make money. Big corporation get in on the profit of not paying minimum wage, too

Wal-Mart knowingly hired Illegal Aliens

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/04/national/main581731.shtml

They got caught and fined but I wonder how many stores, businesses and how many years this has gone on and will continue to go on 'cause they are still making big bucks and very healthy in the stock market,

Just some thoughts

I figure whatever corruption that already exists, well, already exists...though with any stronger laws put in any law books, the price is going to go up proportionally.
I certainly don't think it's a phenomenon, complex or otherwise, as you say it's always been with us, and it has since the very first "law" was spoken and always will.

What will come out of all this in a big picture kind of way is what I'm talking about...the things these idiots didn't once consider, the "unintended consequences".
Believe it or not, there will be positive consequences too (it's also an inevitable given), though I don't believe for a second they will outweigh the negative ones in the long run...for example, the smack down the Republican party & the far right wing nuts will be taking on this because it hypocritically begs to...that and the entertainment value of watching them circle their little redneck wagons...of course maybe that's just me.

This will have major impact, regardless if it's slashed from the books in the next two minutes, my concern is that, as this is such a biggy in the scope of this nation and what we're about (supposedly), what those impacts are going to impact down the road, because stuffing a substantially BIG cat like this, back into it's sack without something bad coming out of it, is practically impossible.

Here's one of my concerns as I see one, if things remain as they are and this law goes into effect.
The same folks that scream from the barn roof about less federal government involved in states rights, want the feds involved in this..they say....and that's perfectly understandable on the face of it, especially by border states...makes perfectly good sense to me.
A possible consequence of this high handed play though, is that these states may get more federal government involvement than they might bargain for in their states in the long run, because of this, what I think is a fundamentally un American, action...and as a consequence, all the other states that have nothing to do with this will have to suck it up from the same cup as well.
I have no clues as to what that will mean, but I bet it will mean something...doesn't it always?

These are things that are probably going to end up in the supreme court, and constitutional law is possibly going to do some big changin'...for the good, bad, or indifferent...guess that'll depends who you are, where you live, and how much you care.
Keep your ears peeled for the term "concurrent jurisdiction" for a start, it may become the new buzz words, you know, till some spinmeister makes it sexier and more visceral.

Ya know, I guess I just like to lk at big pictures.
(then again I'm as blind as, well him >>-----> )

[PatInTheHat]

BTW
Illegal immigrants are not all Mexicans.

Nearly Half of Illegal Immigrants Overstay Visas
　
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5485917

And apparently the government has known this for a while now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vePxREijhsY

It’s been going on ten years! And NOW this Republican is asking this President, that would be Obama, to fix it.

Aww hell darlin', this has been going on for way more than ten years...why my very own direct family line has been here illegally since 1632, I mean I don't have no real paper work.

We be some seriously sneaky rat bastids is what I'm sayin'...perhaps I've said too much

Ya know somethin' else, when I hear these All American Americans talk about being so very American because their families have been here for a time, well I'm thinkin' my kin have been here longer than most of 'em...and did quite a bit more buildin' this joint up & spilling good blood for it to boot.
So by their very own standards, logically shouldn't that give me & mine more of a say so on a whole bunch 'o big deal kinda stuff...hmm, wonder who I see about that?
Ahh that's all right, no sweat homeskillets, I'm pretty laid back...just watch your pie holes would ya, and quit talkin' like you invented the words patriotic & patriotism and we be cool & groovy..wrd!

[Mary Strickland]

I have read that a good many Muslims are here legally and illegally. America used to be the place people wanted to immigrate to, learn the language and become legal citizens. Indeed the country was founded, in part, with that in mind. Many of our greatest citizens with unique talents were immigrants, but they became legal citizens and we are better off that they came. If I could push a button and everyone here illegally would suddenly be wisked out of our borders, I would do it in a heartbeat.