The Gray Area

[Matticus]

So we have had some discussions about "Morality" and and interesting thread about "good and evil"...Robert asked if we could define the terms. I'm not sure we can but I thought it might be fun to discuss.

So if you steal bread to feed your staving family...is that wrong?

I figure folks can come up with tons of examples of this from Murder to sex for hire...what do you guys think?

[jchanic]

That's an interesting question, Matt. I'd NEVER steal bread from someone who needed it to feed their own children, but I don't think I'd have any misgivings about stealing bread from a store to feed my own kids. And I'd keep track, somehow, of what I did so that when (not if!) I got back on my feet, I'd make restitution. I think there are different degrees of good and evil.

As King put it in The Dead Zone, if you had the ability, would you go back in time and kill Hitler?

John

[Robert Gray]

That isn't a gray area. Stealing to feed your family is too easy. If you want a "gray area" consider the following:

1. Robert Gray has a wife whom he loves dearly. She needs a transplant for a major organ and her time is short.

2. Through the fickleness and cruelty of fate, Robert Gray learns that someone he knows is a match and an organ donor.

When it comes to the nature of good and evil... and mother nature... this is the real gray area. We fight to protect our own. It is our nature. Normally, Robert Gray would not kill. For our example we will assume he would not even do it to save his own life. He will, however, do it to save the life of his wife. He considers arranging an accident so the man's generosity of being an organ donor can save his beloved.

[Natjen26]

If a man attacks you, and you kill him in selfdefence. Is that murder?

Personally I think premeditated crimes done out of necessity do have to be punished, allthough not so severe as crimes out of passion or pleasure.
I mean that even when you steal a bread to feed your hungry family, you still need to learn that it's not the way to go, otherwise the line between whats right and wrong fades. It can all start with that bread and end with grand theft auto, because a family who can't afford a bread, can't afford a car either (hence the GTA). There's always an option to avoid crimes, in most cases you just have to swallow your pride and ask for help.

On the other hand.. what if you didn't provoke the situation (attacker gets killed). Or you had an accident which was your fault and people got hurt. You did commit a crime, but it wasn't premeditated. Should you be punished for that? In the first example probably not, because selfdefence is a natural instinct, the strongest survive. The second should get punished, because even when you didn't mean to, you have to pay the consequences (speaking from personal experience here).

And then there is war. Soldiers are killing others without hesitation, without consequences.
I'm reading a novel situated right now in WW2 and in it, it's said that men during war lose their right to live and their right to NOT kill a other human being. This goes against their good conscience, but martial laws states that killing a hostile isn't the same as killing a civilian, as does the prevailing moral.
So my point being, there's so much gray I don't see the black and white anymore!

[Bryan James]

This discussion requires a basic reference to the definitions of "connotation" and "denotation."

The former is a general (or singular) interpretation of a group of letters, while the latter is a sociological interpretation (i.e. set in the stone of a popular dictionary) of what those letters mean.

In other words (and that is what we are discussing, after all), ethnocentrism rules.

Words mean to you what you think they mean to you.

But...maybe a "Peace" sign in California, USA means "I hope a wormy pig sits on your face" in Kenya.

Good and Evil are the same, and I admit that I am not a subscriber to Locke's "Tabula Rasa." There's some stuff that living things know from the starting line. That's "Nature." The rest is "Nurture."

The whole N v. N thing was big when I was in (and out and in and out) of college. It was a wonderfully double-edged sword to instill critical thinking in the young minds of tomorrow. Me? Does it look like a duck? Does it swim like a duck? Does it quack like a duck? By gorry, it's a duck! When's lunch, and which Sorority do I infiltrate this weekend?

But "Good" and "Evil?" You can tell by now that I've spent more thought about this subject over the decades than I have the Sorority issue. That's because there is no answer. That is perplexing to human thought processes. One does not exist without the other...there is no Yin without a Yang.

I like this discussion, even though I've really only had it with myself at this point. It has made me think, and, as many would agree, that is an entirely unusual thing.

Conscious v. Conscience, aye...there's the rub. That, I believe, is the next layer of this discussion.

Thank You, Matticus,
BJS

[themadone06]

So if you steal bread to feed your staving family...is that wrong?

In one of my philosophy classes we discussed a scenario like this, but a little different. I believe it was would you steal from the pharmacy to save your sick wife.

Personally, I believe that there is no correct answer. Both acts are morally wrong, but I think if you asked for the loaf of bread or medicine and explain the circumstances you have put the other person in a moral dilemma. Then they should probably feel obligated to give you the item.

Personally I would steal (and much worse things for that matter) for my family. Stealing is such a petty crime anyway.

[michal]

To me, the things that are considered "immoral" today are simply the modern conception of tomorrow.

In my own parent's time it was considered immoral to live with a guy before you were married, to have premarital sex, for a woman to drink or speak her mind, to express unpatriotic opinions, to be gay and even - MY GOD - to show some skin.

As society changes so are its definitions of Right and Wrong.

I, for one, believe in personal morality and in living your life the way you believe you should, while letting others do the same.

[paulinekh]

I believe we are all capable of good or evil and it is down to the choices we make and how we decide those choices. Personally its down to what my conscience will allow but that is an ever moving baseline depending on each persons interpretation.Interpretation is then influenced by life experiences and now we are descending the spiral of chaos theory.As someone affected by violence and having contemplated both suicide and murder you dont know where your mind goes till you are there in the situation

[Todash]

That isn't a gray area. Stealing to feed your family is too easy. If you want a "gray area" consider the following:

1. Robert Gray has a wife whom he loves dearly. She needs a transplant for a major organ and her time is short.

2. Through the fickleness and cruelty of fate, Robert Gray learns that someone he knows is a match and an organ donor.

When it comes to the nature of good and evil... and mother nature... this is the real gray area. We fight to protect our own. It is our nature. Normally, Robert Gray would not kill. For our example we will assume he would not even do it to save his own life. He will, however, do it to save the life of his wife. He considers arranging an accident so the man's generosity of being an organ donor can save his beloved.

I'm going to say this is not a gray area, not at all. The potential organ donor is a complete innocent, and taking his life, even to save another's, is wrong. Everyone who kills another thinks he has adequate justification.

From another angle, if you steal a loaf of bread to feed your children, you can make restitution for that. If you kill another, there is no way to make restitution.

[poisonbat]

There are a lot of wonderful people out there. If asked, I would happily help anyone who needed my assistance. But DAMN it don't STEAL it from me. When I was out at my moms last week and there is one crappy little store in town. I went there in search of disposable bowls and plastic spoons for cereal. (my mom is moving and everythingis packed) They had the bowls, but did not sell cutlery of any type. Now remember I am in the middle of the desert. There is a restaurant there and we went and ate there. I looked at the spoon, longed to take it with me, actually thought about it. But I could not do it. So, I went up to the owner of this little place and asked him. "If I leave you five dollars deposit on this, can I borrow this spoon?" He looked blankly at me, and said well, Yes. He took my five bucks and pinned it to the cork board behind the register with a note that simply said, "borrowed spoon" I am sure he never thought in a million years I would actually return it, but I did. On my way out of town I took said spoon back and told him he could keep the five bucks for being nice to another human being in time of need. My point is, for the small things in life, there are wonderful, generous people out there. Now if it was self defense, that is a whole other story. Yes I would kill someone to protect myself or my children if there was no other choice. But if escape was possible, It would be my first effort.
I have been: a battered woman, homeless, hungry, sick and drug addicted in my life and have ALWAYS found loving, warm people who helped me though these situations. Maybe I have just been lucky, but I can not see myself stealing when asking is so much better. I guess it is hard for someone to swallow their pride and ask for help, but I find it easier to live with.