We're with the government, we're here to help you.

[CorbinKale]

Jimmy Carter never said anything about SWAT teams when he proposed his dysfunctional behemoth! So much for Zero Tolerance... WTF!?

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=cb68cf9f3fa2fe18a83d1c3dee0039b2&tab=core&_cview=0

"The U.S. Department of Education (ED) intends to purchase twenty-seven (27) REMINGTON BRAND MODEL 870 POLICE 12/14P MOD GRWC XS4 KXCS SF. RAMAC #24587 GAUGE: 12 BARREL: 14" - PARKERIZED CHOKE: MODIFIED SIGHTS: GHOST RING REAR WILSON COMBAT; FRONT - XS CONTOUR BEAD SIGHT STOCK: KNOXX REDUCE RECOIL ADJUSTABLE STOCK FORE-END: SPEEDFEED SPORT-SOLID - 14" LOP are designated as the only shotguns authorized for ED based on compatibility with ED existing shotgun inventory, certified armor and combat training and protocol, maintenance, and parts."
The required date of delivery is March 22, 2010."

[Haunted]

"He should just be grateful that he was getting the best care the government could provide, and all free at that."

The above you might remember is from the unabridged version of The Stand written in 1979.

Grateful huh?

[CorbinKale]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/what_union_bosses_think_Em4qoD4qx9ei7QLeYk8v6I

Albany police union boss makes it very clear that they are just another gang protecting their turf.

"I'm not running a popularity contest here," Mesley said. "If I'm the bad guy to the average citizen . . . and their taxes have go up to cover my raise, I'm very sorry about that, but I have to look out for myself and my membership."

Mesley added: "As the president of the local, I will not accept 'zeroes.' If that means . . . ticking off some taxpayers, then so be it."

[CorbinKale]

The domestic enemies of the Constitution have finally reached the Rubicon. Casus belli.

"The White House declined on Thursday to rule out that President Barack Obama might sign future legislation, such as an immigration reform measure, that has not been put to a recorded yea-or-nay vote in both houses of Congress."

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/63032

Article I, Section 7 of the U.S. Constitution states:

"Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively.”

[wally wonder]

sounds like big jim....i guess as long as the dome exists, this is what we get

[Mary Strickland]

Jimmy Carter never said anything about SWAT teams when he proposed his dysfunctional behemoth! So much for Zero Tolerance... WTF!?

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=cb68cf9f3fa2fe18a83d1c3dee0039b2&tab=core&_cview=0

"The U.S. Department of Education (ED) intends to purchase twenty-seven (27) REMINGTON BRAND MODEL 870 POLICE 12/14P MOD GRWC XS4 KXCS SF. RAMAC #24587 GAUGE: 12 BARREL: 14" - PARKERIZED CHOKE: MODIFIED SIGHTS: GHOST RING REAR WILSON COMBAT; FRONT - XS CONTOUR BEAD SIGHT STOCK: KNOXX REDUCE RECOIL ADJUSTABLE STOCK FORE-END: SPEEDFEED SPORT-SOLID - 14" LOP are designated as the only shotguns authorized for ED based on compatibility with ED existing shotgun inventory, certified armor and combat training and protocol, maintenance, and parts."
The required date of delivery is March 22, 2010."

My hat off to you when you have all the facts and your "ducks in a row." You make more sense than any of the liberals with the OZ mentality!

[CorbinKale]

Cops have raided the Marine Park home of Walter Martin and his wife, Rose, at least 50 times since 2002 looking for crooks, but each time – after a chorus of door pounding and calls of "Open up!" – they've found they got the wrong address, according to a report.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Cops-Raid-Elderly-Couples-Home-50-Times-Looking-for-Crooks-88387022.html

[CorbinKale]

My hat off to you when you have all the facts and your "ducks in a row." You make more sense than any of the liberals with the OZ mentality!

Thanks, Watch THIS one! Sometime these things just jump out at me! :laugh:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=cb68cf9f3fa2fe18a83d1c3dee0039b2&tab=core&_cview=0

"The U.S. Department of Education (ED) intends to purchase twenty-seven (27) REMINGTON BRAND MODEL 870 POLICE 12/14P MOD GRWC XS4 KXCS SF. RAMAC #24587 GAUGE: 12 BARREL: 14" - PARKERIZED CHOKE: MODIFIED SIGHTS: GHOST RING REAR WILSON COMBAT; FRONT - XS CONTOUR BEAD SIGHT STOCK: KNOXX REDUCE RECOIL ADJUSTABLE STOCK FORE-END: SPEEDFEED SPORT-SOLID - 14" LOP are designated as the only shotguns authorized for ED based on compatibility with ED existing shotgun inventory, certified armor and combat training and protocol, maintenance, and parts."
The required date of delivery is March 22, 2010."

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=8d3b076bd4de14bbda5aba699e80621d&tab=core&_cview=1&cck=1&au=&ck=

"The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) intends to purchase sixty Remington Model 870 Police RAMAC #24587 12 gauge pump-action shotguns for the Criminal Investigation Division. The Remington parkerized shotguns, with fourteen inch barrel, modified choke, Wilson Combat Ghost Ring rear sight and XS4 Contour Bead front sight, Knoxx Reduced Recoil Adjustable Stock, and Speedfeed ribbed black forend, are designated as the only shotguns authorized for IRS duty based on compatibility with IRS existing shotgun inventory, certified armorer and combat training and protocol, maintenance, and parts."

WHOA!!! Holy coincidence, BATMAN! Those two Bureaus are the EXACT same two Bureaus that were addressed in the just passed Health Care Reform Bill. You know, the one where the IRS will be tracking your insurance and fining those not conforming to official standards.

I guess they all knew something we didn't. Now we know. Looks like our heathcare and education are going to be dispensed at gunpoint. My financial adviser suggests buying more ammo.

[CorbinKale]

Government solves one woman's problems with a single welfare check. Government official states, "We were just trying to help her out."

http://www.kctv5.com/video/23013661/index.html

[Maddie]

.... this happened 2 months ago, I hadnt heard about it.....

12 year old Girl arrested for doodling

led out of her school in handcuffs and detained at a local police precinct for hours .....


http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/girl-arrested-for-doodling-on-school-desk-sues-new-york-city/19425428?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fcrime%2Farticle%2 Fgirl-arrested-for-doodling-on-school-desk-sues-new-york-city%2F19425428

[CorbinKale]

It's just a few bad apples.:glare: Notice the number of cops present at the beating? Notice that no investigation was started until a civilian turned the video into the media?

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2010/04/college_park_student_beaten_by.html

"You know the score, pal. You're not cop, you're little people!" Chief Bryant, Blade Runner (1982)

[Maddie]

It's just a few bad apples.:glare: Notice the number of cops present at the beating? Notice that no investigation was started until a civilian turned the video into the media?

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2010/04/college_park_student_beaten_by.html

"You know the score, pal. You're not cop, you're little people!" Chief Bryant, Blade Runner (1982)

Corbin I just saw this earlier and was going to post it in here...and trying to say his injuries were from being kicked by their horse cause he injured it, something really needs to be done about all this corruption, its neverending, worsening.

[Maddie]

Why are so many officers so angry, its on the news everyday now their misconduct and crimes , and even though there are cameras, still they do it! heres another one, two weeks ago in Illinois, cop tells a driver to get on the ground and just starts beating him relentlessly, all caught on cop dashboard tape....

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/squad-car-video-captures-cop-beating-motorist-in-illinois/19442662?icid=main|main|dl1|link2|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.c om%2Fnation%2Farticle%2Fsquad-car-video-captures-cop-beating-motorist-in-illinois%2F19442662

[Mary Strickland]

This is the ONLY time I have been glad to live in a rural area. Formerly, I lived in large cities in Texas, and always resented being moved to a "podunk" place. But I still would like to have a book store in the county.

[CorbinKale]

This is the ONLY time I have been glad to live in a rural area. Formerly, I lived in large cities in Texas, and always resented being moved to a "podunk" place. But I still would like to have a book store in the county.

Wait until THIS blows up. The Health Care fight was nothing. I thought Cap and Trade was the next debacle, but fears about the next election have spurred the Dems plans to turn millions of of illegal aliens into votes. I would not want to be living in a city, either. I predict... trouble.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703404004575198601410995496.html

[CorbinKale]

Does this thread belong in the 'political' forum?

[Moderator]

That would probably be a better spot for it, so will move it. I'd planned to go back through, as I have time, to redirect any of the threads that belong in the Hot Topics Forum.

[CorbinKale]

Pennsylvania tax amnesty commercial. A not so subtle threat from the man. He knows where you live, after all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybcu2itqvEQ

[CorbinKale]

They say that when your favorite, most expensive tool is a hammer, all problems begin to look like nails.

Here we see that illustrated in the war on (some) drugs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbwSwvUaRqc

Warning, the footage may be disturbing.

[CorbinKale]

EPA Rulemaking Matters! Subtitled For Your Protection. Set your coffee cup down now. :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvXmDaqNueU

[Pucker]

Wait until THIS blows up. The Health Care fight was nothing. I thought Cap and Trade was the next debacle, but fears about the next election have spurred the Dems plans to turn millions of of illegal aliens into votes. I would not want to be living in a city, either. I predict... trouble.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703404004575198601410995496.html

Nothing new here. Ill-informed, knee-jerk voters have been and will continue to be Mr. Obama's best friends. You could say a lot of disparaging things about Mr. Obama that I might agree with, but he is not a fool.

[CorbinKale]

CNN begins to cover our most unconstitutional bureau. The agency designed to infringe upon that which shall not be infringed. I tried to find out if ATF agents take an Oath to support and defend the Constitution, but had no luck. If I was ever elected President, my first official act would be to disband that unconstitutional thugocracy.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/05/26/atf.whistleblowers/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

[CorbinKale]

More proof that it is too late to fix a corrupt system by working within that broken system. Justice can only be obtained by methods outside the system.

In response to a flood of Facebook and YouTube videos that depict police abuse, a new trend in law enforcement is gaining popularity. In at least three states, it is now illegal to record any on-duty police officer.

http://gizmodo.com/5553765/are-cameras-the-new-guns

[CorbinKale]

At least this one got fired.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/05/29/505974/trooper-kills-a-kitten-and-loses.html

[Maddie]

Obama Administration looks into suing the State of Arizona.



"To learn of this lawsuit through an Ecuadorean interview with the secretary of state is just outrageous," she said. "If our own government intends to sue our state to prevent illegal immigration enforcement, the least it can do is inform us before it informs the citizens of another nation."!



http://l.yimg.com/a/i/ww/news/2010/06/18/061810clintonbrewer.jpg

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100618/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_law_clinton

[Maddie]

:eek2: OMG this guy (a medical professional) gets arrested and charged with assault on police, disorderly conduct, reckless endangerment, a felony count of evading arrest, and other traffic violations, when he pissed off a cop who was interfering with immediate medical care to his wife, as he was rushing her to the hospital ..... also hes been suspended from his job at the hospital because of the felony.

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/newlywed-eric-wright-arrested-after-rushing-wife-aline-wright-to-hospital/19523650?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl2|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fnation%2Farticle% 2Fnewlywed-eric-wright-arrested-after-rushing-wife-aline-wright-to-hospital%2F19523650

[CorbinKale]

:eek2: OMG this guy (a medical professional) gets arrested and charged with assault on police, disorderly conduct, reckless endangerment, a felony count of evading arrest, and other traffic violations, when he pissed off a cop who was interfering with immediate medical care to his wife, as he was rushing her to the hospital ..... also hes been suspended from his job at the hospital because of the felony.

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/newlywed-eric-wright-arrested-after-rushing-wife-aline-wright-to-hospital/19523650?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl2|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fnation%2Farticle% 2Fnewlywed-eric-wright-arrested-after-rushing-wife-aline-wright-to-hospital%2F19523650

Too many facts missing from that story. It is far too probable that they, being 'medical professionals' and working at that hospital, knew the medical system so well, they sought to evade police by faking symptoms. The police have such a history of abusing their authority, the criminals are getting very good at playing on that reputation to avoid prosecution.

This could very well have been a good officer doing his job. Notice the story doesn't say that the cop prevented her from getting treatment, nor did he arrest the husband. They couldn't even verify that she really had a stroke! I will be interested to follow this story. My gut tells me that the medical professionals are going to be exposed as the 'bad guys' this time.

[CorbinKale]

Great news for those who have not yet been able to pledge their service to Obama. Charlie Rangel has introduced a Bill that will save you the trouble.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h5741/text

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

July 15, 2010

Mr. RANGEL introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Armed Services--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL

To require all persons in the United States between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, to authorize the induction of persons in the uniformed services during wartime to meet end-strength requirements of the uniformed services, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled

[CorbinKale]

If you think socialism is a good idea, you might take a good look at previous attempts. The film below is about an hour and a half long. There is one central aspect of socialism, in its different forms, that is hardly ever mentioned. Mass graves. I guess ya gotta break some eggs... After all, it is for the good of the people.

http://www.archive.org/details/TheSovietStory

Of course, this could never happen in America. We are too enlightened.

[CorbinKale]

Timely information from the Congressional Budget Office. This time the government is doing something to help... warning us.

For those of you who won't bother to read it, and for those who read it, but don't get the message, I'll translate.

Store food and arm yourselves. The S is about to HTF.

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=11659

[CorbinKale]

Body scanner images being stored? Surely not! They promised!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20012583-281.html

[CorbinKale]

Stop me if you've heard this one before... ok, this off duty cop walks into a dog park...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/anne-arundel/bs-md-ar-dog-shooting-20100804,0,3761982.story

[wally wonder]

Stop me if you've heard this one before... ok, this off duty cop walks into a dog park...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/anne-arundel/bs-md-ar-dog-shooting-20100804,0,3761982.story

it doesn't sounds good for the owners of bear-bear...i think that is the husky's name...unleashed, for one, probably the only one that matters, and since there doesn't seem to be any other witnesses, he said/he said, the husky was unleashed. judge judy would be all over them.

[CorbinKale]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599201315000

Government agents can sneak onto your property in the middle of the night, put a GPS device on the bottom of your car and keep track of everywhere you go. This doesn't violate your Fourth Amendment rights, because you do not have any reasonable expectation of privacy in your own driveway - and no reasonable expectation that the government isn't tracking your movements.

[Moderator]

My revenge would be boring them to death with the places that I go to. :smile2:

[CorbinKale]

Spying with x-rays, for a better tomorrow, today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGCd0KPJcMs

[Maddie]

My revenge would be boring them to death with the places that I go to. :smile2:


Miss Mod that is Hilariousss!!! :rofl:

[Maddie]

My revenge would be boring them to death with the places that I go to. :smile2:

and it made me think of this again...... :laugh: we dont go anywhere!


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/AmandaRosexxx/modernlife.jpg

[CorbinKale]

Why even try to hide it, at this point?

Well, well, well… Look who has been caught with their hand in the ‘progressive’ cookie jar… None other than the Department of Justice. They have cast off the outdated red, white and blue for a sleek black masthead with a really cool Marxist/Progressive quote:

"The common law is the will of Mankind issuing from the Life of the People"

Catchy, huh? Just one tiny little (too small to be relevant obviously) point – the quote is from C. Wilfred Jenks, who in the 1930′s was a leading proponent of the “international law” movement, which had as its goal to impose a global common law and which backed ‘global workers’ rights.’

http://noisyroom.net/blog/2010/07/17/the-doj-dons-their-new-little-black-dress-with-marxist-accessories/

[CorbinKale]

Global Government Conspiracy? Looks like the 'wingnuts' were right, after all. The Director of National Intelligence places the issue out in the open. No longer is this a hidden agenda. Now the discussion is how to implement the plan.

The National Intelligence Council is pleased to release Global Governance 2025: At a Critical Juncture. The report, produced in conjunction with the European Union's Institute for Security Studies, is a follow-on to the NIC's 2008 Global Trends 2025 study. Global Governance 2025 provides an informal contribution to an important international debate on the way forward for global, regional, and bilateral institutions and frameworks to meet emerging challenges such as climate change, resource management, international migration flows, and new technologies. While not policy prescriptive, the report shares a strong belief that global challenges will require global solutions. The report's primary purpose is to help policymakers in the US and abroad to chart a course for effective management of international problems. In addition, we hope that it will stimulate a broad-ranging debate among academic and nongovernmental experts.
Global Governance 2025 is innovative in many ways. It is the NIC's first unclassified report jointly developed and produced with a non-US body. The report is a culmination of a highly inclusive process that involved consultations with government officials, media representatives, and business, academic, NGO, and think tank leaders in Brazil, China, India, Japan, Russia, South Africa, and the UAE.


http://www.dni.gov/

http://www.foia.cia.gov/2025/2025_Global_Governance.pdf

[CorbinKale]

Heads up, UK!

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39265847

The UK's tax collection agency is putting forth a proposal that all employers send employee paychecks to the government, after which the government would deduct what it deems as the appropriate tax and pay the employees by bank transfer.

[GLewman]

The UK's tax collection agency is putting forth a proposal that all employers send employee paychecks to the government, after which the government would deduct what it deems as the appropriate tax and pay the employees by bank transfer.

Lolololol....I have to laugh...otherwise I might cry...I have a feeling the progressive nanny staters are going to get their behinds kicked rather hard in a few weeks, here in the US...Thank God! :D

[CorbinKale]

Will WA State approve an income tax in addition to the sales tax? Looks like they are going to try it. Of course this will just be for certain rich folks... for now. You know how WA is, though. How many years did they promise to keep the toll on the Narrows Bridge? Two? How long has it been completed, and has the toll disappeared? When you open a tax door for the government, it never closes. It just gets forced wider.

http://www.heartland.org/full/27839/Proposed_Washington_State_Income_Tax_Not_Deductible_Attorney _General_Says.html

[guido tkp]

"when you open a tax door..."

now that is just plain boolsheet...and you know it.
there has been in most states (and especially in the fed tax system) far more tax cutting in the last 10-30 years than there have been tax hikes...even the dread obama has already given us all a tax cut...not a tax hike, and is seeking more for most americans...

how do you think we got so far in debt, here's a hint, sparky: it was NOT just spending !

once again, you prove beyond any shadow of a doubt, that you have no ethical boundary to telling the truth as it actually is

[LadyCatMD]

I guess it's a state by state thing, but my understanding of the police ability to just burst through a door without knocking is NOT about seeing a search warrant through, but it to be used when they believe someone is in imminent danger on the other side. For all other purposes they are supposed to at a MINIMUM knock first, and announce themselves. How this particular organization managed to get around that I don't know, but I would love to see it carried all the way to the Supreme court. That is, unfortunately, yet another example of true abuse of power. Makes me sick.

[Pucker]

Well, LadyCat . . .

There is a wonderfully vague phrase that some police believe gives them the right to do whatever they like and then lie about it later . . .

that phrase being "probable cause." This is why, now that just about everybody is walking around with a camera -- and in many cases, a video camera -- in their pocket, we are suddenly seeing a concerted effort from the police to uphold their ability to clandestinely film you, while quashing any right you may think you have to film them.

[CorbinKale]

The single most unconstitutional agency, the BATFE, is chasing its own tail and churning with internal political intrigue. Lets just hope they stand down while they figure out if your teen-aged sons' Airsoft toy is really a machine gun, or not. Be a shame to have your door kicked in and your dogs murdered, right before they dismantled the bureau created to infringe upon that which "shall not be infringed".

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/why-did-atf-issue-and-then-rescind-a-ruling-declaring-air-guns-firearms

[LadyCatMD]

"when you open a tax door..."

now that is just plain boolsheet...and you know it.
there has been in most states (and especially in the fed tax system) far more tax cutting in the last 10-30 years than there have been tax hikes...even the dread obama has already given us all a tax cut...not a tax hike, and is seeking more for most americans...

how do you think we got so far in debt, here's a hint, sparky: it was NOT just spending !

once again, you prove beyond any shadow of a doubt, that you have no ethical boundary to telling the truth as it actually is

I'm sorry sir but I must disagree. I will not name names and point fingers as I have a firm belief that ALL politicians at the very least DESIRE their hands in our pockets if they do not already have them there... but to say that the federal tax system has shown more cuts than hikes yada yada clearly applies to some (possibly propaganda?) you read or saw on the news, I must assume.

I happen to be a tax person. Yes, one of them awful creepy types that does your taxes for you and forces you to produce receipts and tells you that no matter how much sense it makes that you should be able to write something off, in fact, you cannot. I officially owned a business doing this (you may feel free to look up with the local better business bureau) for 12 years. I went "into retirement" to be a nurse, but managed to maintain a small faithful group of clients who just plain refuse to go anywhere else.
Here's what I can tell you, of my 76 closest clients, who are all small businessmen - over the last 12 years, they have paid progressively more and more tax each year though their overhead increased, and though their income decreased - for their businesses. For their personal taxes, their incomes ALL decreased (the majority of my clients are blue collar - construction and the like), and their taxes maintained at steady rate.
76 people is a small small sampling of the American public. But it IS a sampling, and it has showed consistency in result.
For my personal taxes? Mine actually went UP this year - and for the record, other than doing 76 people's taxes, I am not working this year. I live on my veteran's disability, which is tax free. I went from paying nothing and owing nothing, to making less and paying $800. And please dont think that I missed a deduction somewhere...

[LadyCatMD]

Well, LadyCat . . .

There is a wonderfully vague phrase that some police believe gives them the right to do whatever they like and then lie about it later . . .


Having spent a little over a year of my military career in an MP unit - I understand the probable cause... I also understand they they would HAVE to lie about it afterwards to get that past a judge and if the judge allowed it... shame. Shame on them for not upholding their oath to the law.

Fortunately, as you say, everyone and their brother has a camera now and is more than willing to take footage of ANYONE - this has certainly become a "turn your neighbor in" society. The upside of that is - several of those police you speak of keep appearing on the news doing appalling thing to innocent or not so innocent people and losing their careers over it. Which is ok by me.
And I stay enough to myself... move along, theres nothing to film here... :D

[CorbinKale]

Paul Helmke goes off the deep end. Is he predicting how incompetent the new bureau chief will be, based on his dismal record, or is he illustrating how counter-productive gun-control is? Either way, Helmke's marketing skills are questionable. :rofl:

Andrew Traver has been tapped to lead the nation’s top crime-fighting agency (BATFE), which hasn’t had a director in over four years. (See our August report about the unprecedented vacancy here.) He is the current ATF chief for the Chicago region – home to the city where last July 303 people were shot and 33 killed in 31 days.

http://blog.bradycampaign.org/?p=2962

[CorbinKale]

A bit of closure in the police killing and coverup in NOLA.

NEW ORLEANS -- A federal jury on Thursday convicted three current or former New Orleans police officers but acquitted two others in the death of a man during Hurricane Katrina's chaotic aftermath.

The jury of seven women and five men on convicted former officer David Warren of manslaughter in the shooting death of 31-year-old Henry Glover outside a strip mall on Sept. 2, 2005.

The jury also convicted Officer Gregory McRae of burning Glover's body in a car. Lt. Dwayne Scheuermann was acquitted of that charge.

Lt. Travis McCabe was convicted of writing a false report on the shooting. Former Lt. Robert Italiano was cleared of that charge.

A total of 20 current or former New Orleans police officers have been charged this year in a series of Justice Department civil rights investigations. The probe of Glover's death was the first of those cases to be tried.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news%2Fnational_world&id=7835243

[CorbinKale]

TSA Worker Avoids Prison After Stealing Travelers’ Laptops

“He put the luggage through special machines to see whether there was any explosives or anything of concern in the luggage,” she told KYW Newsradio. “When he saw that there was something of value in the luggage, he took out the computers or the games.”

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2010/12/17/tsa-worker-avoids-prison-after-stealing-travelers-laptops/

[CorbinKale]

California's economy has been dead for awhile. What's one more headshot, at this point?

California air regulators approve carbon-trading plan

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-1217-climate-cap-trade-20101217,0,562122.story

Only one air board member voted against the overall cap-and-trade program: John Telles, a physician who represents the San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution Control District. Telles said the measure would not protect low-income residents from energy price hikes. He also suggested that a carbon trading market would be open to "manipulation," as was the case with California's disastrous deregulation of electricity markets in the 1990s.

[CorbinKale]

Food safety bill on its way to Obama

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20101222/BUSINESS01/12220335/1001/NEWS/Food-safety-bill-on-its-way-to-Obama

Democrats ram through another intrusive bill, during lame duck session.

"FDA needs a modern set of authorities to deal with the effects of our increasingly globalized food supply," said Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif.

Republicans criticize the bill for not be intrusive enough!

Republican critics attacked the bill for a Senate provision that exempts smaller producers from having plans for preventing contamination. "We've learned in our committee hearings that foodborne pathogens don't care if you're a big facility or a small facility or a big farm or a small farm," said Rep. Joseph Pitts, R-Pa.

Two sides of the same progressive coin.

[Moderator]

If it means my chances of getting salmonella, botulism, ecoli, or any other of a myriad of nastiness that can come about from contaminated food products are being at least reduced, I'm all about the government ramming through bills being intrusive into the industries that are cutting corners on self-inspecting and passing along that potentially fatal nastiness to consumers. From what I heard, they may not have gone far enough e.g. in the poultry/egg industry.

[JohnDalglish]

said Rep. Joseph Pitts, R-Pa.


Hi,

It's da Pitts?

Long days and pleasant nights

[CorbinKale]

If it means my chances of getting salmonella, botulism, ecoli, or any other of a myriad of nastiness that can come about from contaminated food products are being at least reduced, I'm all about the government ramming through bills being intrusive into the industries that are cutting corners on self-inspecting and passing along that potentially fatal nastiness to consumers. From what I heard, they may not have gone far enough e.g. in the poultry/egg industry.

Food is freedom. This is a slow march to total control of our food supply. How long until we have to be licensed and inspected to grow a backyard garden? Apply for a permit to buy seeds? Will we fear arrest for giving extra produce to neighbors, in violation of the Commerce clause. You have to look at how these laws will be abused.

[Moderator]

Everything has the potential to be subject to abuse, but there has to be balance, James, and the majority of us buy the bulk of our food in grocery stores. We live in a global society and one reason we can have some assurance that the food we eat won't kill us is because there is oversight. In the choosing your battles dilemma, this is one area that I want there to be regulation for the items that are sold in the grocery store.

[boogerb53]

Cobin, you have lost your mind Sugar! Food that is prepared by someone else for us to put in our mouths should come from a trusted source. We should not have to worry about whether there are food borne illness waiting inside every can of potted meat. :barf: That is a long leap indeed to growing tomatoes in my back yard. Get real.

[CorbinKale]

Everything has the potential to be subject to abuse, but there has to be balance, James, and the majority of us buy the bulk of our food in grocery stores. We live in a global society and one reason we can have some assurance that the food we eat won't kill us is because there is oversight. In the choosing your battles dilemma, this is one area that I want there to be regulation for the items that are sold in the grocery store.

That is the beauty of capitalism. Food producers that poison their customers tend to go out of business. Food that is imported from foreign growers and large farms should be regulated, as you say. When we apply those same standards to the smaller growers, they don't have the volume business to justify the expense and paperwork required to stay in business. The organic farmers will be forced out of business, and we will only be left with the large genetically modified produce controlled by big corporations like ConAgra and Monsanto.

Knowing who is sponsoring these bills is just as important as knowing who is growing your food. Is this about food safety, or is this about getting rid of the competition?

http://www.biotech-info.net/conagra_monsanto.html

"ConAgra's Food Safety campaign follows GM alliance with Monsanto"

Posted by Natural Law Party Wessex
August 8, 1999


The Omaha based ConAgra Foundation has begun a three-year national public awareness campaign called "Home Food Safety … It's in Your Hands™". The goal is "to raise consumer awareness that home food safety is a serious problem and provide solutions so Americans can easily and safely handle food in their own kitchens."

ConAgra Foundation is "the philanthropic arm of ConAgra, which works to improve the quality of life in communities around the world." ConAgra itself is, in fact, a US based agri-food international conglomerate.

Last year ConAgra, together with Monsanto/Cargill and Novartis/ADM, was identified in a University of Missouri study on behalf of the National Farmers Union in America as an "agribusiness goliath" - one of the big alliances, formed through links such as joint ventures, which are positioning themselves to dominate world food production at the expense of both farmers and consumers.

I say, again, food is freedom. If we have to depend on the government in order to eat, we will be a slaves.

[CorbinKale]

Cobin, you have lost your mind Sugar! Food that is prepared by someone else for us to put in our mouths should come from a trusted source. We should not have to worry about whether there are food borne illness waiting inside every can of potted meat. :barf: That is a long leap indeed to growing tomatoes in my back yard. Get real.

The tomatoes in your backyard probably won't have fish DNA spliced in, but the FDA approved tomatoes just might. Will it cause you to grow gills, or just cause cancer 20 years from now? Who knows? We do know that they are attempting to create such abominations. As long as the government says things are safe, we should just trust them? Didn't they say the same thing about Agent Orange?

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/dna/pop_genetic_gallery/index.html

Once genetic mutations are released into the biosphere, there is no way to predict what might happen.

[boogerb53]

So what's yer point? I read the article. They didn't release the tomatoes. Are we supposed to stop working on ways to improve our food supply just because one way didn't work? And what's the big deal about the fish gene? We eat fish. I don't get yer point.

[CorbinKale]

So what's yer point? I read the article. They didn't release the tomatoes. Are we supposed to stop working on ways to improve our food supply just because one way didn't work? And what's the big deal about the fish gene? We eat fish. I don't get yer point.

My point is about unintended consequences. If you know what they are attempting, and have no problem with it, then you are making an informed decision.

[sknut70]

you know kentucky fried chicken changed its name to kfc because the chicken has been genetically altered so much they cant legally all it chicken anymore.

:wink2:

[CorbinKale]

you know kentucky fried chicken changed its name to kfc because the chicken has been genetically altered so much they cant legally all it chicken anymore.

:wink2:

I thought it was because 'fried' is politically incorrect. :)

[sknut70]

nope genetically altered mutants


http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/lowtolerance/kfccopy.jpg

[Moderator]

:eek2: No wonder they "need" to be adding antibiotics to the poultry feed.

[JohnDalglish]

Hi,

Virtually all trhe patents for GM modified crops and animals are owned by the Roslin Institute, inventors of Dolly the Sheep and the strawberry before her.

Roslin Institute

The Roslin Institute is richer than most countries and is wholly owned by the Knights Templar, who have their own, very private, agenda and also own Rosslyn Chapel (don't worry about the different spellings of the Rose Line - all there for misdirection).

Rosslyn Chapel

And the USA is sometimes known as 'The Templar Experiment'.

Long days and pleasant nights

[PatInTheHat]

nope genetically altered mutants


http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/lowtolerance/kfccopy.jpg

Huh, and here I thought that was the logo of CFC:oo:...Chernobyl Fried Chicken:oh:.

[CorbinKale]

No good deed goes unpunished.

Good Samaritans Face Fine After Rescuing Deer From Icy Water

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2010/12/17/good-samaritans-face-fine-after-rescuing-deer-from-icy-water/

[CorbinKale]

The unconstitutional arms infringement tax agency, commonly known the ATF, has blundered, again. No children were burned alive this time, but a Border Patrol agent lost his life due to their incompetent leadership.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml

[Ayla]

you're unwavering belief that the media reports are all true astounds me. Whilst i wont argue that ALL the stories are untrue or that governments dont stuff up its important to realise all media outlets have their own agendas.

I work within a government department that attracts a lot of media attention. and i can assure you that not one story has ever gotten it right. They misquote, they dont do their research, they report stories without having done even a basic investigation to its validity. you should also know that various politicians and upper management levels will out right LIE to the media in a bid to boost themselves up or bring someone else down. They deliberately leak things to the media that are either untrue or out of context to stir the pot.

Everytime you read an anti-government story remember that they have one goal....to make a profit. and being the lonely yet strong voice of truth against a government hell bent on tearing down the little guy sure does sell a lot of papers.

[CorbinKale]

you're unwavering belief that the media reports are all true astounds me. Whilst i wont argue that ALL the stories are untrue or that governments dont stuff up its important to realise all media outlets have their own agendas.

While I may astound you, I don't believe all media reports. I DO happen to know the guys who coordinated cover for the ATF whistleblowers, and got the Senators to launch the probe of the cover-up. You may not see our television in Australia, but our news outlets are just beginning to cover this story. Even though it broke over two months ago.

If you are interested, I will link you to the bloggers involved. The link I already posted is just an example of the condensed version, and not affiliated with the bloggers.

It will have to be a private message, though. I don't want to cross the line from pointing out a political news story to something much more involved in the patriot movement's efforts to eradicate the ATF.

[PatInTheHat]

I wonder who did all the "thinking" for this little mission by the TSA?
Well, maybe they got a big fat tip on the, 'People with children getting off of a train in Savannah Georgia', hotline.
http://news.travel.aol.com/2011/02/28/why-did-tsa-pat-down-kids-adults-getting-off-train/?icid=maing|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk3|47402
I'm afraid I would have become a tad bit unhinged, and might possibly now be enjoying an all inclusive stay at a retention center never to be named later...it would seem, that all of my potential future commercial travel choices have now been derailed.
That was a good example of being herded like livestock, after they've already gotten to the stockyard:glare:.

[Ayla]

While I may astound you, I don't believe all media reports. I DO happen to know the guys who coordinated cover for the ATF whistleblowers, and got the Senators to launch the probe of the cover-up. You may not see our television in Australia, but our news outlets are just beginning to cover this story. Even though it broke over two months ago.

If you are interested, I will link you to the bloggers involved. The link I already posted is just an example of the condensed version, and not affiliated with the bloggers.

It will have to be a private message, though. I don't want to cross the line from pointing out a political news story to something much more involved in the patriot movement's efforts to eradicate the ATF.

thats fine corbin...i believe you. but i think if you are going to denouce something you need to try and back it up properly like you did in your secodn post. you tend to throw out a lot of news stories and i wonder sometimes if you are aware of some of the other goings on behind the scenes. Like i said, i work in governemnt AND my best friend is a journalist. I know how some of how it works on both sides and neither side is ever without guilt. just making sure your keeping that in mind. keep up the good fight...

[CorbinKale]

thats fine corbin...i believe you. but i think if you are going to denouce something you need to try and back it up properly like you did in your secodn post. you tend to throw out a lot of news stories and i wonder sometimes if you are aware of some of the other goings on behind the scenes. Like i said, i work in governemnt AND my best friend is a journalist. I know how some of how it works on both sides and neither side is ever without guilt. just making sure your keeping that in mind. keep up the good fight...

My opinions about the many topics we discuss are just that, opinions. I got them by researching and discussing the subjects with LOTS of people on all sides. The SKMB is perfect for that, because we have lots of intelligent members and a fair moderator. Often times, I will post a news story to get opinions from others. Sometimes I post the stories to build a body of evidence. Still other times, I post a story that I am involved in, but hold back details because of the rules against self-promotion.

In short, I am aware of what goes on behind the scenes, because that is where I operate... as a concerned citizen. Nothing is what it seems, and every unforced move is calculated.

I like where your head is at, and I appreciate your advice. I wish MORE people would realize that, like an iceberg, there is MUCH more to each story than we see on the surface.

[CorbinKale]

I wonder who did all the "thinking" for this little mission by the TSA?
Well, maybe they got a big fat tip on the, 'People with children getting off of a train in Savannah Georgia', hotline.
http://news.travel.aol.com/2011/02/28/why-did-tsa-pat-down-kids-adults-getting-off-train/?icid=maing|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk3|47402
I'm afraid I would have become a tad bit unhinged, and might possibly now be enjoying an all inclusive stay at a retention center never to be named later...it would seem, that all of my potential future commercial travel choices have now been derailed.
That was a good example of being herded like livestock, after they've already gotten to the stockyard:glare:.

You are going to love THIS!

CONCORD, N.H. -- Lawmakers and residents engaged in heated debate Tuesday over a bill that would make random airport security pat-downs and body scans criminal in New Hampshire.

http://www.wmur.com/politics/27035604/detail.html

The video clip on that page is well worth watching. In it, we discover the proper response to all the Miss Grundys who insist we must be assaulted for our own good. :rofl:

[Moderator]

Was that the part about crying on the phone to your mother? :biggrin2:

[CorbinKale]

Was that the part about crying on the phone to your mother? :biggrin2:

No, slightly after I broke into tears. I was bound to get *bleeped*, whether I flew or not! :laugh:

[PatInTheHat]

You are going to love THIS!

CONCORD, N.H. -- Lawmakers and residents engaged in heated debate Tuesday over a bill that would make random airport security pat-downs and body scans criminal in New Hampshire.

http://www.wmur.com/politics/27035604/detail.html

The video clip on that page is well worth watching. In it, we discover the proper response to all the Miss Grundys who insist we must be assaulted for our own good. :rofl:

I think that's a bit over & under the top, threatening to charge the screeners themselves that is.
If they want to make a point, they need to make it with the higher ups, you know, the ones that never take any real heat for anything...ever.
Those folks are just doing basically a thankless job on the front line, not making policy.

That one gal almost had a valid point, about the "need" to fly, but it's really about if you actually have a "right" to fly.
If driving is considered a privilege and not a right in this country (and I can make a decent argument it is a right), then planes, trains, and buses fit the same mold.
Bicycles and mules on the other hand:eyebrow:...let's just say you'll have to pry that mule from my cold dead hands, well you know, after it's kicked my skull in for using it as a political pawn..or because it's say, a Tuesday:biggrin2:.
Oh would I have loved to have seen any arm of the gov'mint pat down my 'ol sweety Muley Pie's crotch, they'd of had to call in the Nat'l Guard, and quite possibly a massive air strike of little green apples and Michelob:oh:.

[CorbinKale]

The bloggers, who broke the ATF scandal two months ago, have linked up with CBS to get the story to a wider audience.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/breaking-cbs-to-report-tonight-on-project-gunwalker?cid=parsely#parsely



CBS NEWS UNCOVERS GUNRUNNING SCANDAL WITHIN THE ATF

Agency Secretly Endorsed Practice of Letting Guns "Walk";

ATF Agent to CBS News: "God Only Knows How Many Guns Were Used to Kill People"

Tonight on the CBS EVENING NEWS WITH KATIE COURIC (6:30 PM, ET), CBS News Investigative Correspondent Sharyl Attkisson reports on a major scandal building within the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), one of America's top law enforcement agencies. CBS News uncovered evidence which supports the allegation that the agency that is supposed to stop border gunrunning to Mexico's drug cartels actually participated in letting it happen. Attkisson reports that these guns have turned up at the scenes of violent crimes, including the murder of a U.S. border patrol officer in Arizona.

CBS News reveals that "Project Gunrunner," an ATF operation that aims to stop the flow of weapons from the U.S. to Mexican drug cartels, has allegedly facilitated the delivery of thousands of guns into the hands of criminals. Often bought with cash, and sometimes brought in paper bags, sources tell CBS News that several gun shops wanted to stop the questionable sales, but were encouraged to continue selling by the ATF, so that they could continue gathering intelligence and see where the weapons ended up. This dangerous tactic is referred to as letting the guns "walk."

Veteran ATF agents called this strategy "insane" and "appalling," with one, speaking under a condition of anonymity, telling CBS News, "We were fully aware the guns would probably be moved across the border to drug cartels where they could be used to kill." CBS News has been told that at least 11 ATF agents and senior managers voiced fierce opposition to the strategy.

Sharyl Attkisson's full report, including a potential link between "Project Gunrunner" and the murder of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, broadcasts tonight on the CBS EVENING NEWS WITH KATIE COURIC.

[CorbinKale]

Connecticut citizens to gain new employment opportunities this Summer. Lots of openings and a high turnover rate expected. If you don't have a problem with violating civil rights and commiting unlawful acts, the position of 'Magazine Collector' might be for you! Applicants must certify that all of their affairs are in order before hiring.

AN ACT BANNING LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION MAGAZINES.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Assembly convened:

Section 1. (NEW) (Effective July 1, 2011) (a) As used in this section, "large capacity magazine" means any detachable ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition, but does not include: (1) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than ten rounds, (2) a .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device, or (3) a tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

(b) Any person who possesses a large capacity magazine shall be guilty of a class D felony.

(c) Any person who (1) prior to the effective date of this section, lawfully possessed a large capacity magazine, and (2) not later than ninety days after the effective date of this section, removes such magazine from this state or surrenders such magazine to an organized local police department or the Department of Public Safety for destruction, shall not be subject to prosecution for a violation of subsection (b) of this section.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/TOB/S/2011SB-01094-R00-SB.htm

I guess they missed the memo that we are not going to take one more step back? There's still a few months left before they finalize this terrible mistake, but judging from the fact that the legislator(s), who introduced the Bill, were cagey enough to leave their names off, this is probably just another trial balloon.

[CorbinKale]

ATF Agent goes on record about the gunrunning operation. Looks like this goes all the way to Holder in the DoJ.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7358389n

Those who were 'up in arms' a year ago, about gun shops being complicit in arms smuggling to Mexico, now get the chance to look back and see how they were used by the government to help push an unconstitutional gun control agenda. Now that someone has turned on the light, we will see the roaches scatter. I look forward to the Senate investigations being coordinated as I type this. Holder's war on the Constitution may be coming to an end.

[CorbinKale]

CBS keeps up the pressure regarding the ATF's efforts to facilitate arms smuggling into Mexico. White House says, regarding this international incident, they don't know.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20040189-503544.html

White House press secretary Jay Carney did not shed any light Monday on the allegations uncovered by CBS News that ATF intentionally let thousands of assault rifles and other weapons fall into the hands of Mexico's drug cartels. Insiders call the controversial practice letting guns "walk."

In the wake of our CBS News investigation, Mexico has asked the U.S. for more information. Two AK-47 type variant assault rifles that ATF allegedly let "walk" were found at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry last December. Here's the excerpt from today's White House briefing:

CBS News chief White House correspondent Chip Reid: "Do you have any comment on the story and on these developments today?"

Carney: "I don't. Obviously, as the president pointed out when he spoke here with President Calderon, we take the issue of the flow of guns south very seriously, as we do the issue of the flow of drugs north. And -- but beyond that, I don't have any comment."

Reid: "Is he aware of this specific allegation..."

Carney: "I don't know."

Reid: "... that hundreds of guns went into Mexico with the knowledge of ATF?"

Carney: "I don't know."

[CorbinKale]

Looks like CBS is hammering the ATF, relentlessly. Great reporting on our government illegally running guns into Mexico, since 2008. Anti-gun groups, suddenly, fall silent. How odd. Illegal smuggling of guns into Mexico seemed pretty important to them a year ago.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTkEFQlLGao

[GLewman]

I've been trying to follow this Corbin, but it makes me sick to my stomach when I hear how this whole thing is being played out. Definitely criminal in my opinion and I'm curious as to how far up the ladder this thing is going to go?

[CorbinKale]

I've been trying to follow this Corbin, but it makes me sick to my stomach when I hear how this whole thing is being played out. Definitely criminal in my opinion and I'm curious as to how far up the ladder this thing is going to go?

We may find out. Looks Like Mexico is demanding an investigation to discover why the US government would facilitate guns being smuggled into their country. Either this goes all the way to the top, or the ATF truly is an unaccountable, rogue agency. So far the White house has been silent. All the ATF heads were called to Washington, so they probably just need a few days to get their story straight.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110309/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_us_border_guns

– Tue Mar 8, 7:38 pm ET
MEXICO CITY – Legislators from all of Mexico's three major parties in congress are calling for a joint U.S.-Mexico working group to examine accusations that U.S. federal agents allowed hundreds of guns to flow into Mexico.

[CorbinKale]

Check out the internal spin in the ATF. They insult the reporting of CBS, then have the gall to encourage use of the media to divert attention away from their crimes. Something tells me that the media is not going to take such personal insults to their profession very well. This is just another example of incompetent leadership in the ATF.

Yes, this memo was leaked by another 'good guy' in the ATF ranks. Call the phone numbers if you want to verify the source. :rofl:

Public Information Officers:

Please make every effort for the next two weeks to maximize coverage of ATF operations/enforcement actions/arrests at the local and regional level. Given the negative coverage by CBS Evening News last week and upcoming events this week, the bureau should look for every opportunity to push coverage of good stories. Fortunately, the CBS story has not sparked any follow up coverage by mainstream media and seems to have fizzled.

It was shoddy reporting, as CBS failed to air on-the-record interviews by former ATF officials and HQ statements for attribution that expressed opposing views and explained the law and difficulties of firearm trafficking investigations. The CBS producer for the story made only a feigned effort at the 11th hour to reach ATF HQ for comment.

This week (To 3/1/2011), Attorney General Holder testifies on the Hill and likely will get questions about the allegations in the story. Also (The 3/3/2011), Mexico President Calderon will visit the White House and likely will testify on the Hill. He will probably draw attention to the lack of political support for demand letter 3 and Project Gunrunner.

ATF needs to proactively push positive stories this week, in an effort to preempt some negative reporting, or at minimum, lessen the coverage of such stories in the news cycle by replacing them with good stories about ATF. The more time we spend highlighting the great work of the agents through press releases and various media outreaches in the coming days and weeks, the better off we will be.

Thanks for your cooperation in this matter. If you have any significant operations that should get national media coverage, please reach out to the Public Affairs Division for support, coordination and clearance.

Thank you,

Scot L. Thomasson

Chief, ATF Public Affairs Division

Washington, DC

Desk 202-XXX-XXXX

Cell 206-XXX-XXXX

[GLewman]

I have a feeling it might be a case of devastating incompetence. Isn't the Department of Justice in charge of the ATF? Janet Reno and now Eric Holder...Just a couple more years and hopefully these buffoons will get their walking papers.

[CorbinKale]

Even though the ATF's plan to facilitate additional support for gun control legislation, by boosting the number of guns smuggled into Mexico, failed miserably, not to mention embarrassingly for the Obama administration, the President is planning to forge ahead in his blundering attempts to enforce his vision of socialism upon the nation. A revolt against a long chain of unconstitutional abuses and usurpations is about to be triggered by his threat to pass more arms infringement laws by edict.

I can't say it enough. We will not take one more step back. Some of us take our Constitutional Oath, seriously. If he goes through with it, he will start a war.

"If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." -- Winston Churchill

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/15/obama-gun-laws-congress_n_836138.html

[CorbinKale]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20059640-10391695.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Claims that stricter gun control laws are needed to stop the flow of guns into Mexico, suddenly cease, as news that the source of that illegal flow of arms was facilitated by the same administration calling for more gun control. Administration officials are now stonewalling Congressional invesigators.

I wonder if Holder is going to take responsibility for this deadly botched propaganda campaign? Someone is going to be prosecuted for international gunrunning crimes, if not accessory to murder. The administration can make a plausible claim of ignorance, but that is almost as damaging as admitting they did it on purpose. This is going to be an interesting Summer.

[CorbinKale]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/14/mexico.guns/

Schumer said. "We need to redouble our efforts to keep violent firearms out of the hands of these traffickers."

On top of the gall it takes to renew the fraudulent storyline about US gun stores smuggling weapons into Mexico, in light of the administration's oversight and facilitation of said smuggling, we get to witness a classic case of hoplophobic demensia. Note that the traffickers are not the source of the violence, in Shumer's mind. No, it is the "violent firearms" that leap into the hands of these hapless traffickers and assumes control of their actions.

The ugly fact that has the administration in full panic mode is that acting ATF Director Ken Melson has two choices. Take the fall, or roll over on his bosses. I would not be surprised to hear of Melson's suicide. This administration has sanctioned the murder of innocents in order to further a gun control agenda. There will be justice, one way or the other. Get ready for the ride.

[omm poppa mow mow]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20059640-10391695.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Claims that stricter gun control laws are needed to stop the flow of guns into Mexico, suddenly cease, as news that the source of that illegal flow of arms was facilitated by the same administration calling for more gun control. Administration officials are now stonewalling Congressional invesigators.

I wonder if Holder is going to take responsibility for this deadly botched propaganda campaign? Someone is going to be prosecuted for international gunrunning crimes, if not accessory to murder. The administration can make a plausible claim of ignorance, but that is almost as damaging as admitting they did it on purpose. This is going to be an interesting Summer.

Yeah, but on the University of Michigan campus, they will outlaw smoke come July 1st. See, what we need is for all the decorated veterans of the successful war on smoke to head south, perhaps charter a bus, take in the sights, the amber waves of grain and whatnot. The wife and I

[omm poppa mow mow]

.....heh heh!...yeah, so I'm all thumbs on occasion. Where was I? Before that post went todash on me? I believe I was sending the troops south, perhaps to spread the word, no smoking allowed...this of course will upset someone if they stop to consider it. So be it.

What gets me is that the news on this gun fiasco is that more than one was recorded as purchasing multiple guns...this was observed and allowed to happen and one gun that went south killed an American law enforcement official. Damn them and their bureaucratic aims. (read deceit)

How many drunks have killed others here on the highways? Since all this did and did not make the news?

[CorbinKale]

UH OH! Looks like the scapegoat is not going to walk meekly to his demise. If they fire him, he will go for immunity. Keep this guy on 'suicide watch'!

Kenneth Melson, acting director of the troubled Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and Explosives, is paying little heed to news reports speculating that he may step down in the wake of a House oversight panel's investigation suggesting he had advance knowledge of an ATF gun smuggling operation that went awry.

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0611/062211cc1.htm

Restless nights for Holder, I bet. I'd say that the promised transparency is coming, despite stonewalling from the DoJ and denials from the White House. They seem to be employing my old tactic of ignoring a problem and hoping it will go away. Too bad that never worked.

[PatInTheHat]

UH OH! Looks like the scapegoat is not going to walk meekly to his demise. If they fire him, he will go for immunity. Keep this guy on 'suicide watch'!

Kenneth Melson, acting director of the troubled Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and Explosives, is paying little heed to news reports speculating that he may step down in the wake of a House oversight panel's investigation suggesting he had advance knowledge of an ATF gun smuggling operation that went awry.

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0611/062211cc1.htm

Restless nights for Holder, I bet. I'd say that the promised transparency is coming, despite stonewalling from the DoJ and denials from the White House. They seem to be employing my old tactic of ignoring a problem and hoping it will go away. Too bad that never worked.

I heard on one of the news channels, might of even been John Stewart come to think on it, something about how he supposedly had live feed fed in to an office flat screen, to watch various wheelin's & dealin's live & on stage.

It'll be interesting to see if an actual head of the ATF will actually get confirmed in the very near future.

[CorbinKale]

It'll be interesting to see if an actual head of the ATF will actually get confirmed in the very near future.

Andrew Traver seems to be the favorite for the job. Currently, he is the infamously anti-2nd Amendment Chief of the Chicago ATF. Since there is speculation that he was in on the 'Gunwalker' debacle, his confirmation may be on hold. I think the only way Traver will make it is with a recess appointment.

[CorbinKale]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/06/27/atf-head-kenneth-melson-to-testify-before-congress-on-operation-fast-and-furious.html

As head of the agency that conducted the controversial sting, Melson has faced calls for his resignation. But in private conversations with congressional investigators in recent days, Melson has indicated he does not believe he did anything wrong because he carried out his bosses’ wishes and is eager to testify to describe the full picture, according to sources familiar with those conversations.

Looks like Melson decided to roll over on Holder. His Nuremburg-failed defense of "I was just following orders" clearly indicates he has opted for immunity to give up the bigger fish. I am assuming he has been warned to avoid strolling in Fort Marcy Park.

With Melson's decision, we are close enough to ask the next big question. Will Holder pull an Oliver North and fall on his sword for the PotUS? The Summer is heating up!

[PatInTheHat]

Andrew Traver seems to be the favorite for the job.


I think the only way Traver will make it is with a recess appointment.

I would reeealy enjoy that, if only for one of my most favorite activities, the watching of politico heads explode:biggrin2:.
I mean why just hit the fan, when you can fling it right into it, that's my motto...oh, and safety first goggles are always a must >>------> :geek:

[CorbinKale]

Last year, when the popular gun control myth was that 90% of the guns used in drug violence in Mexico were traced back to US sources, I said it was probably because of all the guns our government sends to the Mexican government. I had no idea that the ATF was involved in additional gunrunning to the cartels. When I DID learn of the international smuggling operation, I posited that this was an elaborate ruse to create a crisis that could be used as an excuse for MORE gun control. I am sure there were many, who thought it was just another crazy theory, but now we have the Cummings/Schumer show hearings tomorrow. I take no pleasure in being right on this one. They will use the ATF's illegal operation to justify additional gun control. Never let a crisis go to waste, even if you have to create the crisis yourself.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/cummings-schumer-to-hold-gunwalker-show-trial-for-gun-rights?CID=examiner_alerts_article

[CorbinKale]

Jon Stewart explains the 'Gunwalker' debacle.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-21-2011/the-fast-and-the-furious---mexico-grift

[CorbinKale]

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/07/july-4-bbq-in-dc-behind-closed-doors.html

Melson was due to testify on the 13th with DoJ oversight, but Ken pulled a fast one, testifying on July 4th with his personal attorney!

Melson not only implicated the ATF and DoJ in the scandal, but he also testified how the FBI and DHS were involved. Looks like this goes higher than the DoJ now. Watch for key personnel to scramble for immunity deals. Before Melson testified, I never expected that they would be able to implicate anyone higher than Holder in this investigation. Now, I'm not so sure. Obama's "under the radar" gun control scheme may have just blown up in his face. The Mexican body count, so crucial for his anti-gun agenda, may now be the very thing that destroys this President.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/over-a-barrel-meet-white-house-gun-policy-adviser-steve-croley/2011/04/04/AFt9EKND_story_2.html

On March 30, the 30th anniversary of the assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan, Jim Brady, who sustained a debilitating head wound in the attack, and his wife, Sarah, came to Capitol Hill to push for a ban on the controversial “large magazines.” Brady, for whom the law requiring background checks on handgun purchasers is named, then met with White House press secretary Jay Carney. During the meeting, President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, “to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda,” she said.

“I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”

[BeowulfTX]

Wow I just dropped in to see what was up with SK, and found this thread. I still have more reading to do to catch up. I will be returning with much greater frequency. My thanks to the contributors.

[CorbinKale]

This thing just keeps getting worse and worse. Now it turns out there was another ATF gunrunning operation to Honduras, in Tampa!

The exact same agencies that would be charged with enforcing the proposal are currently under investigation — and may eventually face felony charges — because they broke existing laws and participated in widespread gun trafficking. To borrow from a reader, the federal government is using federal agencies to break federal laws so that same federal government can impose more federal laws on the people that did not break the law.

It is Orwellian in its absurdity, and yet entirely real.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/obfuscation-dems-push-gun-control-to-hide-gunwalker-scandal/

[CorbinKale]

DoJ officials break Federal gun control laws, selling to convicted law-breakers, in order to justify more gun control laws for those who don't break the law. Of course, it was done intentionally. It's not like they expected to get caught.

Feds Refuse to Explain How Convicted Felons Bought Guns in 'Operation Fast and Furious'

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/25/feds-refuse-to-explain-why-proper-background-checks-werent-conducted-on-fast/

[CorbinKale]

Ouch. The investigation has reached Holder's office door. As witnesses continue to step forward, additional gunrunning OPS are revealed and the body of evidence indicates a government-wide involvement, Issa fires a shot across the administration's bow.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3zUon0C_gk

[guido tkp]

i'm well acquainted with a semi-retired jag officer, he is a life long (r) and a gun owner: he is also not a member , nor a fan, of the NRA

i asked him about this, he just laughed.
he's not callous, he's actually very well informed, especially when it comes to reality

hint to the blind: if this were a real scandal, the (r)s would've been all over it, all summer, and so would every other news organization
it should tell one everything anyone needs to know that all this 'info' comes only from cbs and the NRA: no other news organizations, including Fox, are all over this

my friend did smirk even more widely at the idea that daryl issa was on the hunt: my friend has a far higher opinion of obama than he does issa, and, as i mentioned, he is a lifelong (r)
as summer seems to be winding down, (it's gonna be a hot summer !)...i'm wondering where all the heat on this is....

perhaps, since the poster has often spouted revolution against our govt, we might all sit back and realize what the true motivation here is: not that there is some great conspiracy by obama and his men to end all gun ownership in our country by selling weapons to drug lords...
no...
just another not so blatant attempt by the NRA (founded, i might add, as part of the Klan) to foment a revolution where none need be

i've lived in my red state for over 30 years, and i've never seen a (d) raise the issue of ending gun ownership: most (d)s i know own and hunt

obama did not campaign against guns and has done nothing at all to try and take guns away: another bleedin' hint to the unwise...that would take an act of congress

it is, however, a very sad day when truth , justice and honesty take a back seat to whether or not good ol' corby and his govt conspiracy crew needs a 20-30 round mag to shoot his opposum dinner...or, as he continually suggests..the real reason is to shoot his fellow americans...y'know, the ones who won't goosestep straight down the line with him

[CorbinKale]

Although, I enjoy your rambling partisan ad hominem, you might want to read the thread before commenting to avoid future self-inflicted embarrassment.

[guido tkp]

this entire thread is nothing but a rambling partisan ad hominem

[CorbinKale]

this entire thread is nothing but a rambling partisan ad hominem

'Ad hominem' refers to character attacks, as opposed to fact based discussion. I am presenting facts, backed up with evidence. I don't see much point in degrading, personal attacks. Rather than proving your point, they tend to discredit your whole argument.

This is about government corruption, regardless of political faction. Bush's Campaign Finance Reform, The Patriot Act and the first TARP bank bailout, were all unconstitutional. Obama's gunrunning to the drug cartels, to facilitate a Mexican bodycount, in order to push for further unconstitutional arms infringements is criminal, too.

I am not a Republican, nor a Democrat. I believe that both parties are two sides of the same socialist coin. Ask your favorite Republican if they are willing to end SS and Medicare, and you will see their devotion to socialist programs. You may suspect that I am partisan because I am highlighting the crimes committed during the current Democrat administration, but that is caused by your own narrow perspective. For the record, Republicans are just as corrupt and hypocritical as Democrats. I am a Constitutionalist, which prevents me from belonging to a political party.

[guido tkp]

you've made it very clear and i've no problem with the idea that you are more, if not entirely, a tea party kinda guy...that does not make you a 'constitutionalist' by any stretch of the imagination, nor give you any greater insight about the constitution...

i'm not referring to what you call a partisanship against obama...you've made it clear you have a disdain for many politicians you do not agree with

and on some occasion, when you actually are correct, i actually agree with you.

but the conclusion that the current administration is up to nefarious, odious means, by selling guns to the drug cartels, or their lackeys, in order to strip away our gun rights is one of the single most ludicrous things any one had ever opined.

i realize that what your main objective here is to muddy the already murky waters by spouting as much n.r.a. propaganda as you can...and that's just fine...you can have your delusions..be happy with them

but, as an individual who dwells in some form of reality, i feel it is also important to remind you, and anybody else that wishes to drool on about such fallacies that there is this magical place called reality, and that you ought to get involved it and not in the fantasy world you seem to be locked into

i'm not arguing about whether the event took place...we all know it did, it's been acknowledged from the moment it came to light: the administration has mea culpa'd..
but the truth is the truth...and while this was, at every point, a totally fubared idea, it was not and is not about taking away americans gun rights AND as such should not be made to be so.

[guido tkp]

p.s.: i'm well aware of the definition of ad hominem...it fits exactly your unpleasant, irresponsible, totally untrue attacks against anyone who does not agree with you: you, after all, are the one continually saying that you and your cronies are all about bringing on a 'revolution' of 'constitutionalists'

[CorbinKale]

p.s.: i'm well aware of the definition of ad hominem...it fits exactly your unpleasant, irresponsible, totally untrue attacks against anyone who does not agree with you: you, after all, are the one continually saying that you and your cronies are all about bringing on a 'revolution' of 'constitutionalists'

I am human, so it is possible. Please link the ad hominem that has you upset. I would like to take responsibility and apologize for such behavior.

[CorbinKale]

i realize that what your main objective here is to muddy the already murky waters by spouting as much n.r.a. propaganda as you can...and that's just fine...you can have your delusions..be happy with them.

I am against the NRA, just as much as I am against Republicans and Democrats. The NRA does nothing more than compromise away our Rights, guaranteed in the Constitution. There has been no major arms regulation passed without the consent and aid of the NRA. When others try to repeal unconstitutional laws, the NRA leaps into action, warning that "Now is not the Time!" Look at the recent gains against unconstitutional arms infringement laws. GOA was the proactive organization, in spite of the NRA trying to silence them. You THOUGHT it was the NRA, who was your enemy, because you got your opinion fed to you. If you want to regulate guns, you could have no better friend than the NRA. The NRA wants Holder to resign, because of the Fast and Furious gunrunning debacle. What a crock! HUNDREDS are dead because of this planned undermining of our Constitution. Holder, and any other domestic enemy of the Constitution in this case, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, after the investigations are completed.


i'm not arguing about whether the event took place...we all know it did, it's been acknowledged from the moment it came to light: the administration has mea culpa'd..
but the truth is the truth...and while this was, at every point, a totally fubared idea, it was not and is not about taking away americans gun rights AND as such should not be made to be so.

The administration has stonewalled, covered up, retalliated against whistleblowers and lied throughout this investigation. They have admitted no responsibility for the deaths that occurred as a result of their breach of their own Federal laws, not to mention the act of war against our ally, Mexico. This is not over by any stretch. I dare you to show me where Holder said he was responsible. Did Holder give the order to initiate an international gunrunning operation to the drug cartels? Who was it then? Someone higher in the chain? Was anyone in charge? The fact that you can't tell me who gave the order proves that there was no mea culpa.

[guido tkp]

btw...it's been several weeks now...where are all the (r) inquisitors and mr issa...?

in america, right now, it wouldn't take much to (figuratively speaking, of course) hang any politician if they'd done half of what you say....and yet complete silence...total...100%

heck..that ran that one guy out for wearing a tigger suit !

of course ! i get it...obama fails at everything he does except keeping this one under wraps....right

[CorbinKale]

btw...it's been several weeks now...where are all the (r) inquisitors and mr issa...?

in america, right now, it wouldn't take much to (figuratively speaking, of course) hang any politician if they'd done half of what you say....and yet complete silence...total...100%

heck..that ran that one guy out for wearing a tigger suit !

of course ! i get it...obama fails at everything he does except keeping this one under wraps....right

Patience. All of the details are still emerging. This criminal enterprise keeps getting bigger by the day. Here is a recent development on another Gunwalker operation, this one in Texas.

http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2011/08/another-fast-and-furious-cornyn-demands-information-on-atf-operation-in-texas/

[guido tkp]

cronyn...?

that's it...his legitamacy on any issue is near zero...

holy cow, watch out barack...dem idjits wunt too no wut wuz up on der wach...ges dem wus sleepin, two

y'know, everyday, across our country, police departments use this exact same tactic on a wide assortment of issues to get to the root of just who is behind whatever criminal activity has been plaguing them and their jurisdiction.
it does NOT mean the they are automatically out to get into the drug/prostitution/smuggling/whatever trade.
your continued reiteration that this is the two chicago black guys way of taking away your..ahem..cough..god given right to own a gun is sheer stupidity, and quite frankly, i find it rather racist.

THE MAN DID NOT RUN ON A PLATFORM THAT DEALT IN ANY WAY WITH ABOLISHING THE 2ND AMENDMENT ( a n.r.a talking point about just about EVERY democrat..ever: you can bleat on about how you are not a fan, but virtually all you ever do is quote chapter and verse), BANNING OR CONFISCATING GUNS and this supposed great conspiracy you and your friends wish to foment is nothing less than a ruse to rouse the rabble into action that you continually call for

[CorbinKale]

Screw up, move up. Yeah, this is going to work out great...

A senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee on Tuesday described as “inconceivable” a Justice Department decision to promote key Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) personnel who oversaw the controversial “Fast and Furious” weapons investigation that allowed hundreds of guns to be walked into Mexico to new positions in Washington.

Sen. John Cornyn of Texas, who last week demanded that Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. immediately brief his office regarding the “scope and details of any past or present ATF gun-walking programs” in his state, said until Mr. Holder and the department “come clean” on the gun-walking investigation, “it is inconceivable to reward those who spearheaded this disastrous operation with cushy desks in Washington.”

The ATF has promoted three key supervisors of a controversial sting operation that allowed firearms to be illegally trafficked across the U.S. border into Mexico.

Mr. Cornyn’s comments were in response to a Los Angeles Times‘ story that said three ATF supervisors heavily criticized for pushing the Fast and Furious program forward had been given new management positions at the agency’s Washington headquarters. The three are William G. McMahon, ATF’s deputy director of operations in the West, and William D. Newell and David J. Voth, both of whom oversaw the program out of the agency’s Phoenix office.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/16/cornyn-blasts-promotions-fast-furious-supervisors/

[CorbinKale]

Wow! If anyone is curious as to the extent of the incompetence or corruption of our government at the highest levels, this letter lays it bare.

http://grassley.senate.gov/judiciary/upload/ATF-08-16-11-CEG-DEI-letter-to-Holder-Melson-transcript-agreement-with-Grassley-failures.pdf

[CorbinKale]

Dallas Morning News weighs in.

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/20110819-editorial-details-only-get-worse-from-atfs-fast-and-furious-fiasco.ece

Finding someone to stand up and take responsibility for the feds’ ill-advised gun-walk-to-Mexico program has been anything but fast. Only the denying, obfuscating and bus-throwing-under has been furious.

Months into a congressional investigation into Project Gunrunner and its Arizona-led wing, Operation Fast and Furious, we know only a little more. In large part, this is because Attorney General Eric Holder and his Department of Justice have expended far more energy covering up than coming clean.

[CorbinKale]

"Laws for thee, but not for me." Looks like the government has zero tolerance for running guns into Mexico. Naturally. No criminal gang will tolerate competition on their turf.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/government-brooks-no-gunwalker-competition?CID=examiner_alerts_article

We’re supposed to be a nation of equal justice for all. If a private gunwalker merits severe punishment, how much more do obstructionists sworn to uphold the law, who betrayed their official positions of power, engaged in conspiracy, and callously allowed people to die in order to advance an agenda?

If that does not merit a complete and independent investigation to uncover the whole truth, then there is no justice in this country and the rule of law is dead. What explanation can there be for those opposing this except that they want that outcome?

[CorbinKale]

This is what happens when our elected leaders, sworn to support and defend the Constitution, never bother to read and understand the Constitution. Additionally, the policeman in this incident, also sworn to support and defend the Constitution, should have refused to obey such an unlawful order. How can they support and defend the ideas contained in a document, if they have not read and understood the document? As long as ambitious tyrants have unwitting pawns to enforce their will upon the people, we will not be a free nation. This is a prime example of unconstitutional government, operating under color of law.

A congressman from Ohio had cops grab the cameras of constituents during a town hall meeting. Steve Chabot, a Republican, had cell phones and cameras confiscated in order to “prevent an embarrassing Youtube video from making the rounds,” according to Carlos Miller, who runs a blog documenting efforts by the state to stifle the First Amendment rights of photographers.

http://www.infowars.com/cops-confiscate-cameras-at-ohio-congressmans-town-hall/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKA07KSoaSc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R0a8CcegxI

[frisbee]

CorbinKale - I agree completely with your point about our elected officials being sworn to uphold something they haven't read. What really gets me is that Obama was a professor of Constitutional Law and believes its ok to tell me what product I have to buy wrt health insurance.

[guido tkp]

but, frisbee, then maybe he has a constitutional leg to stand on, after all : did that not occur to you ?

the jury is still out and the various courts must, as is thier job, rule.

before we all continue to go off half-cocked all the time claiming something that might not be there, maybe we should all talke a deep breath and wait and see.

let the system do its job, and everybody needs to stop all the assumptions that they, alone, are correct.

more often than not we find that the constitution can, and is actually meant to be interpreted in a manner that is not what some may like.
but that does not make the actions/laws/rulings/ or people who think or work towards those goals guilty of some contstitutional heresy.

[CorbinKale]

CorbinKale - I agree completely with your point about our elected officials being sworn to uphold something they haven't read. What really gets me is that Obama was a professor of Constitutional Law and believes its ok to tell me what product I have to buy wrt health insurance.

He studied the Constitution, but he disagrees with it, fundamentally. He does not like the fact that it is a charter of negative liberties. THAT is a telling statement, for it is only negative to FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LIBERTIES! It was plainly written to be shackles on the government, enumerating just a handful of powers delegated to it. Everything else is reserved to the States and the People. Many tyrants have been frustrated by not being able to do whatever they want to the nation.

Obama KNOWS it's unconstitutional, but he HAS to try it. The US has been asleep for a long time. Without people standing up and pointing out harrassing laws and usurpations of power, it might have passed, uncontested. "I would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling TEA Partiers!" :rofl: Are we astroturf, or are we terrorists? They really don't have a plan to deal with us, yet. They always talked about grassroots politics, but they never really saw it in person, until now. :)

[Moderator]

It's all down to one word: interpretation.

The federal government does believe it has the authority based on its interpretation of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution. Those who want to limit authority to their more restrictive way of thinking disagree. It does not mean Obama knows it's unconstitutional and is abusing his powers, it means the Tea Partiers and those who want to interpret the Constitution to give more authority to individual states (not necessarily always a good thing) see it differently because of how they interpret it.

The Tea Party may have started out as grass roots but if you want to talk about something being usurped, there's a great example.

[omm poppa mow mow]

He studied the Constitution, but he disagrees with it, fundamentally. He does not like the fact that it is a charter of negative liberties. THAT is a telling statement, for it is only negative to FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LIBERTIES! It was plainly written to be shackles on the government, enumerating just a handful of powers delegated to it. Everything else is reserved to the States and the People. Many tyrants have been frustrated by not being able to do whatever they want to the nation.

Obama KNOWS it's unconstitutional, but he HAS to try it. The US has been asleep for a long time. Without people standing up and pointing out harrassing laws and usurpations of power, it might have passed, uncontested. "I would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling TEA Partiers!" :rofl: Are we astroturf, or are we terrorists? They really don't have a plan to deal with us, yet. They always talked about grassroots politics, but they never really saw it in person, until now. :)

(well that obviously didn't work...tried typing a response and apparently I hit a key that posted before I was read)

Wanted to say that I am reading Frank Miniter's Saving the Bill of Rights. He quotes from a senior seminar paper that Obama wrote while attending Columbia. "The Constitution allows for many things, but what it does not allow is the most revealing. The so-called Founders did not allow for economic freedom. While political freedom is supposedly a cornerstone of the document, the distribution of wealth is not even mentioned. While many believed that the new Constitution gave them liberty, it instead fitted them with the shackles of hypocrisy."

This is telling, the language that he uses: "the so-called Founders"...."freedom is supposedly..." and so on, like "while many believed that the new Constitution gave them liberty..."

This man became president. I've likened him to Leland Gaunt and that fits to a tee. Obama does not like the U.S.A. He became president, in part, with his appeal to envy and greed, much as Leland Gaunt used those same emotions in Needful Things to wreck havoc.

[RichardX]

Ms. Mod-
I hope SK springs for a couple bottles of wine for you at the end of each week! I'm a republican but of the optimistic Reagan variety and not the paranoid fringe crazies of recent years. You are wasting your time arguing with those people. They are true believers.

[guido tkp]

now that is just one of the most ridiculous comments made by anyone so far.

why don't you just stand up and yell repeatedly barack HUSSEIN obama !!
pointing your finger accusingly, getting that irate look about your countenance...as if it means anything

after what unka stevie (and the others) said during the press conference for 'the pulse', it's clear we do need a voice of reason and sanity...(oh, wait, some other idiot uses that one)...a voice of TRUTH in this extremely untruthful envirenment we find ourselves in

[omm poppa mow mow]

It's all down to one word: interpretation.

The federal government does believe it has the authority based on its interpretation of Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution. Those who want to limit authority to their more restrictive way of thinking disagree. It does not mean Obama knows it's unconstitutional and is abusing his powers, it means the Tea Partiers and those who want to interpret the Constitution to give more authority to individual states (not necessarily always a good thing) see it differently because of how they interpret it.

The Tea Party may have started out as grass roots but if you want to talk about something being usurped, there's a great example.


I'll quote Senior United States District Judge Roger Vinson, ruling on the constitutionality of ObamaCare in January 2011:

"It is difficult to imagine that a nation which began, at least in part, as the result of opposition to a British mandate giving the East India Company a monopoly and imposing a nominal tax on all tea sold in America would have set out to create a government with the power to force people to buy tea in the first place. If Congress can penalize a passive individual for failing to engage in commerce, the enumeration of powers in the Constitution would have been in vain...and we would have a Constitution in name only. Surely this is not what the Founding Fathers could have intended."

(I believe the tax/penalty wording of the law will play big in the highest court, once it reaches that destination)

[Moderator]

From the 6th Circuit's ruling:

After acknowledging the difficulty of pinpointing the limits on Congress’s power to regulate interstate commerce, Judge Sutton wrote, “In my opinion, the government has the better of the arguments.” He added, “Not every intrusive law is an unconstitutionally intrusive law.”

The Sixth Circuit majority held that the mandate was “facially constitutional under the Commerce Clause” for two reasons.
“First, the provision regulates economic activity that Congress had a rational basis to believe has substantial effects on interstate commerce,” Judge Martin wrote. “In addition, Congress had a rational basis to believe that the provision was essential to its larger economic scheme reforming the interstate markets in health care and health insurance.”


The court directly addressed whether a choice to go without health insurance qualifies as an “activity” that substantially affects interstate commerce, which is the standard set in prior Supreme Court decisions on the breadth of the Commerce Clause.


“The activity of foregoing health insurance and attempting to cover the cost of health care needs by self-insuring is no less economic than the activity of purchasing an insurance plan,” the opinion stated.


The majority emphasized that the case should not hang on distinctions about whether the failure to buy insurance should be defined as activity or inactivity, a question the Supreme Court has never considered. “The constitutionality of the minimum coverage provision cannot be resolved with a myopic focus on a malleable label,” the judges said.


In his concurrence, Judge Sutton added, “Inaction is action, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, when it comes to financial risk.” Whether an individual buys an insurance policy or not, the judge wrote, “each requires affirmative choices; one is no less active than the other; and both affect commerce.”

[CorbinKale]

From the 6th Circuit's ruling:

After acknowledging the difficulty of pinpointing the limits on Congress’s power to regulate interstate commerce, Judge Sutton wrote, “In my opinion, the government has the better of the arguments.” He added, “Not every intrusive law is an unconstitutionally intrusive law.”

The Sixth Circuit majority held that the mandate was “facially constitutional under the Commerce Clause” for two reasons.
“First, the provision regulates economic activity that Congress had a rational basis to believe has substantial effects on interstate commerce,” Judge Martin wrote. “In addition, Congress had a rational basis to believe that the provision was essential to its larger economic scheme reforming the interstate markets in health care and health insurance.”


The court directly addressed whether a choice to go without health insurance qualifies as an “activity” that substantially affects interstate commerce, which is the standard set in prior Supreme Court decisions on the breadth of the Commerce Clause.


“The activity of foregoing health insurance and attempting to cover the cost of health care needs by self-insuring is no less economic than the activity of purchasing an insurance plan,” the opinion stated.


The majority emphasized that the case should not hang on distinctions about whether the failure to buy insurance should be defined as activity or inactivity, a question the Supreme Court has never considered. “The constitutionality of the minimum coverage provision cannot be resolved with a myopic focus on a malleable label,” the judges said.


In his concurrence, Judge Sutton added, “Inaction is action, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, when it comes to financial risk.” Whether an individual buys an insurance policy or not, the judge wrote, “each requires affirmative choices; one is no less active than the other; and both affect commerce.”

Let's hope Judge Sutton's lack of understanding does not lead to tragedy. If armed men are sent to enforce compliance with his tyrannical edict, I will not comply. I wonder if he has considered how the War of Independence affected commerce?

[Moderator]

I see, so it's lack of understanding when a Federal judge uses a section of the Constitution to support the federal government's passage of a law that you feel is unconstitutional. There we go with that interpretation issue again. :wink2: Don't you already have insurance (I seem to remember there having been a discussion with someone else about this before) that you contribute to and the rest is part of your benefits as retired military so are in compliance with the requirement to have it? Why would you need to worry about having anyone showing up on your doorstep (armed or otherwise) ?

[CorbinKale]

I see, so it's lack of understanding when a Federal judge uses a section of the Constitution to support the federal government's passage of a law that you feel is unconstitutional. There we go with that interpretation issue again. :wink2: Don't you already have insurance (I seem to remember there having been a discussion with someone else about this before) that you contribute to and the rest is part of your benefits as retired military so are in compliance with the requirement to have it? Why would you need to worry about having anyone showing up on your doorstep (armed or otherwise) ?

I signed up for that voluntarily. No one put a gun to my head, like the proposed individual mandate does. I took an Oath, as a condition of my government service, to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I am honor bound to speak out against this unconstitutional mandate. Being an Oath-sworn, government-sanctioned guardian of the Constitution, I think my interpretation is valid. I'm willing to put myself in harm's way in defense of it. If the Judge has less commitment to his interpretation, than I do mine, liberty survives without a fight. If the Judge's interpretation is embraced in the SCotUS, we'll have a struggle on our hands.

You may be misunderstanding my argument here. I am not opposed to insurance. What I oppose is tyranny. The Federal Government has no authority to require the purchase, or prohibit the purchase, of a good or service. Period. There is a Constitutional way to gain that authority(Constitutional Amendment), but any other method is, by definition, unconstitutional. You'll recall that Judges once upheld slavery as Constitutional. Did that make slavery right? Judges could be wrong then, just as Judge Sutton is wrong now. Let's hope the People don't have to go through another civil war to set the Judges straight on the issue. Slavery is wrong, whether it's racial or economic. I won't accept those chains just because a Judge believes I should.

[zelmonster]

I believe the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit has become the most reversed circuit before the Supreme Court.

From February 2011 USA Today…


"The court owns the longest losing streak in the country over the past two years at the U.S. Supreme Court, which reviews decisions and corrects mistakes made by the nation's top appeals courts.

The Supreme Court has examined 15 rulings from the 6th Circuit since 2008 and has thrown out every one of them.”

The ruling by the 6th Court of Appeals is scary IMO. Based on their conclusion, let’s face it… if the government can use the “costs” everyone incurs because of uninsured individuals, they can now mandate how many trips you make to McDonald’s per month - because it makes you fat which has associated health care costs that everyone shares in, or is forced to pay in increased costs. See… a slippery slope.

Unfortunately, I think ObamaCare has been structured in such a manner that makes it pert near impossible to repeal in the short term and we will see decades of court challenges with little to no changes. So for all the talk of repeal, all the court challenges, all the misery… I’m afraid we’re stuck with this turkey that has already caused huge increases in health care insurance premiums, will cost more than it saves, and will result in lower levels of medical care for us all. And will result in death penalties - I know everybody hates the term, but we will have to ration health care going forward under ObamaCare based on age, just like in Great Britian.

[Moderator]

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree that this is the tyranny you feel it is or the line in the sand to be using as justification for the level of civil disobedience you're suggesting. That we should have even had to have an amendment to the Constitution to stop slavery or allow women to vote is only reinforcement to me that the founding fathers' did not get it all right and that perhaps we can allow for the less restrictive interpretation of that document without having to go to an amendment for something like this.

[Moderator]

I believe the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit has become the most reversed circuit before the Supreme Court.

From February 2011 USA Today…



The ruling by the 6th Court of Appeals is scary IMO. Based on their conclusion, let’s face it… if the government can use the “costs” everyone incurs because of uninsured individuals, they can now mandate how many trips you make to McDonald’s per month - because it makes you fat which has associated health care costs that everyone shares in, or is forced to pay in increased costs. See… a slippery slope.

Unfortunately, I think ObamaCare has been structured in such a manner that makes it pert near impossible to repeal in the short term and we will see decades of court challenges with little to no changes. So for all the talk of repeal, all the court challenges, all the misery… I’m afraid we’re stuck with this turkey that has already caused huge increases in health care insurance premiums, will cost more than it saves, and will result in lower levels of medical care for us all. And will result in death penalties - I know everybody hates the term, but we will have to ration health care going forward under ObamaCare based on age, just like in Great Britian.

That's certainly the line of thinking its opponents want us to believe.

[CorbinKale]

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree that this is the tyranny you feel it is or the line in the sand to be using as justification for the level of civil disobedience you're suggesting. That we should have even had to have an amendment to the Constitution to stop slavery or allow women to vote is only reinforcement to me that the founding fathers' did not get it all right and that perhaps we can allow for the less restrictive interpretation of that document without having to go to an amendment for something like this.

I will agree that it isn't perfect, and that view was also held by the Founders. Had they believed that they had the perfect sysytem to stand the test of time, they would not have included the Amendment process. It is a contest of wills that will never end, no matter what system we put in place. Humans are just naturally that way. :) The Roman Empire didn't last forever, and I have no illusions that the United States will, either. We can only do the best we can with what we have at the time.

I realize that my resistance to these forced measures that are 'for my own good' are frustrating to the people doing the forcing. If I would just shut up and do as I'm told, things would go smoothly. Well this is America, and the People still maintain the spirit of resistance. I could just as easily argue that if the government would quit forcing unwanted controls and mandates on us, everything would go smoothly. Most likely, neither side will back down. If the 'forcers' intend to enforce their will upon the 'resistors', there will probably be a fight. I wonder which side the Police and Military will take? The guys on the line that I speak with are firmly on the side of the people. They know that orders to enforce unconstitutional laws, are unlawful orders. They are also aware that it is their duty to refuse unlawful orders. (see Nuremberg Trials)

[Moderator]

There are those including myself who feel that we are also "the people" and don't want that kind of "protection." This could just as easily go the other way, i.e. that if it goes all the way to the Supreme Court and is ruled as being constitutional, those who oppose it could put their efforts into passing an amendment that would ban it.

[CorbinKale]

There are those including myself who feel that we are also "the people" and don't want that kind of "protection." This could just as easily go the other way, i.e. that if it goes all the way to the Supreme Court and is ruled as being constitutional, those who oppose it could put their efforts into passing an amendment that would ban it.

And we will. We will continue working within the system, until the system is broken beyond repair. Neither side will stop. We are two separate nations living within a common border. That can't stand. Eventually, one side or the other, will throw a chair and the basketbrawl will fall out. Each side sees the other as unreasonable, and each side has a line that will not be crossed without dire consequences. Wars tend to happen because no one believes that they are possible. I can tell you the attitude from my side is that we are done compromising, backing up at each usurpation on the Constitution and liberty. This far, and no farther. Any movement from this point will be back towards less government and more freedom.

From our standpoint, we are being forced to do things we find abhorrent. We are demanding that the other side STOP doing things to US. I don't know where or when the break will occur, but if things don't turn around soon, it is inevitable.

[zelmonster]

Perhaps it’s time to put the Tenth Amendment back into constitutional thought.


“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

[Moderator]

Perhaps it’s time to put the Tenth Amendment back into constitutional thought.

I'm (seriously) curious as to why some people feel that government control that comes from a state as opposed to the federal government is less objectionable. Is it about being able to move to a different state if you don't like a particular one's rules but you feel that if it's federal, there's no place else to go?

[PatInTheHat]

I'm (seriously) curious as to why some people feel that government control that comes from a state as opposed to the federal government is less objectionable. Is it about being able to move to a different state if you don't like a particular one's rules but you feel that if it's federal, there's no place else to go?

And most folks that have any real complaints about government, it's actually the local municipal, city, county, or state laws and carte blanche bureaucracies, that 'causes most hair pullin' rantin' & ravin', and the occasional slide into semi insanity & mindless madness...hmm, trickle down perhaps?...well I guess something had to finally trickle down, eventually:eyebrow:.
The real kick in the butt is, most folks don't have a clue who their state senators are (or treasurer, attorney general...), much less their affiliated parties, and if they vote for them at all, they vote party line, or what I feel is even more ignorant beyond measure, by name recognition, depressingly proven to be a huge election factor, and gee whiz, just how f'n stupid is that:glare:?
Most people can't tell you what boundaries their own congressional district looks like, or even care for that matter...a fact that hasn't escaped the GOP...don't believe me, ask Tom Delay..though that little pecker, 'The Hammer', did get busted.
Most folks don't know which federal court district they live in, and kiss my butt if they know who the presiding judge is, and you can completely forget them knowing who appointed them.
But that doesn't stop 'em from whinin' about stuff they only hear a little somethin' somethin' about on a national level, stuff they're told they definitely wont like, because they were previously told they're not to like it, now does it?
But now ask them what decisions their local school board may have just made, that may, or may not, effect their children in the local schools...oh, and while your at it, ask them who actually sits on that board:wink2:.
Well I figure it's that nobody likes to do homework, especially not if somebody is kindly & generous enough to offer givin' 'em all the correct and corresponding ideological answers...and totally, for free no less, well you know, in a manner of speaking.
Whenever I hear some talkin' head or expert on politico speak, say, 'All politic is local', I always wonder if they could tell me who their local district state rep actually is, and who or what it is they might very well be beholden to.
All politics use to be local, but I'm really not so sure about that anymore, it's a whole new world what with our 24/7 media meat grinder, which doesn't make it's necessarily a bad thing I don't think, it's just something we have quite a ways to be growing into yet.
Of course I figure I'll be quite dead by then, but you guys keep havin' a swell ol' time with that...but if'n y'all don't mind (like ya got a choice:rolleyes:) I'll keep tryin' to snag the cheapest of yucks, and pushin' the occasional button, till the day I split:biggrin2:.

[themadone06]

I'm (seriously) curious as to why some people feel that government control that comes from a state as opposed to the federal government is less objectionable. Is it about being able to move to a different state if you don't like a particular one's rules but you feel that if it's federal, there's no place else to go?

I guess that the being able to move is a part of it. However, it is because at the state level the people have a lot more control over the issue. At the Federal level there is no referendum process. At the state level the people often get to vote on controversial laws directly on election day. For example, in Ohio the SB 5 Collective Bargaining Bill was passed last spring. A petition has been spread out, and a referendum vote will be held in November. This is a vote directly by the people for the bill. I know many other states have this kind of process, and it is something that would be almost impossible at the Federal level. At the Federal level the people really have very little say, outside of their representative. I mean he/she is only one person outside of 535.

Some other things that were voted on in Ohio with this process in the past.

Public Smoking Ban

Casino Legislation

Gay Marriage

State Agriculture Board (To keep PETA legislation out of the state)

There are several more, but I can't think of the rest as of right now.

[Moderator]

I agree that matters that only concern those in a particular state should be left to the individual state but when its impact is felt by those outside the state, they shouldn't be the final arbiter and more and more the lines are blurred as we live in an increasingly global society. For example, that another state may decide it wants to have less restrictions on companies that as a by-product of their business pollute the air in order to promote its business growth has an impact on states where that pollution is carried by air or water and the health of the individuals who reside in that other state is negatively affected. That a state that decides it doesn't need safety regulations and its citizens do not voluntarily heed them and the result is an increase in accidents that require medical attention, insurance (medical and/or life), lawsuits, etc. has the potential to affect citizens in other states if those corporations that provide the services are not just locally owned and operated. That affects their bottom line and can potentially raise the costs to everyone (not just those who live in that state) who is a part of their business.

[CorbinKale]

I'm (seriously) curious as to why some people feel that government control that comes from a state as opposed to the federal government is less objectionable. Is it about being able to move to a different state if you don't like a particular one's rules but you feel that if it's federal, there's no place else to go?

Yes, that is a key part of the Federal system. This allows experimentation and competition among the States. In that in the 'real world marketplace of ideas' laboratory, the best ideas will prosper, and the worst will die on the vine (Federal subsidies aside :/ ). The People are the Sovreign, and create the State government. The People and the State create the Federal government. People tend to forget that the Federal government is not our master, but our servant, shackled by the chains of the Constitution.

[CorbinKale]

I agree that matters that only concern those in a particular state should be left to the individual state but when its impact is felt by those outside the state, they shouldn't be the final arbiter and more and more the lines are blurred as we live in an increasingly global society. For example, that another state may decide it wants to have less restrictions on companies that as a by-product of their business pollute the air in order to promote its business growth has an impact on states where that pollution is carried by air or water and the health of the individuals who reside in that other state is negatively affected. That a state that decides it doesn't need safety regulations and its citizens do not voluntarily heed them and the result is an increase in accidents that require medical attention, insurance (medical and/or life), lawsuits, etc. has the potential to affect citizens in other states if those corporations that provide the services are not just locally owned and operated. That affects their bottom line and can potentially raise the costs to everyone (not just those who live in that state) who is a part of their business.

If people are concerned that a State is not exercising responsible government, the People are free to move to that State and change the government to support their ideas. Additionally, if one State's actions are harming another, and a legal remedy is required, the SCotUS is the proper venue for settling those issues. A one-size-fits-all tyranny is not the solution.

[guido tkp]

"a one size fits all tyranny is not the solution"

and yet....through your constant and repeated threats of acts of violence and revolution...that is exactly what you demand,

only... it must be your version...must be your 'size'

[CorbinKale]

"a one size fits all tyranny is not the solution"

and yet....through your constant and repeated threats of acts of violence and revolution...that is exactly what you demand,

only... it must be your version...must be your 'size'

I make observations of human nature and of historical consequences to government oppression. If you find those references relevant to our current situation, and find that reality threatening, you benefit from being able to make informed choices. You can continue to support expanded government control, fully aware that there is a breaking point. As for me, I make no threats. I wish to live in peace, aggressing against no one.

[themadone06]

only... it must be your version...must be your 'size'

Haven't both sides of the aisle been demanding the same thing? I wouldn't say it is only Corbin that is advocating "their" version.

[CorbinKale]

More out of control government. They need to be reminded that they are OUR employees. We have every right to oversee and critique their performance.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/08/26/305501/webster-town-hall-watchlist/

In recent weeks GOP congressmen have resorted to all sorts of underhanded schemes to avoid interacting with their angry constituents back home over August recess. Now two Republican freshmen, Reps. Daniel Webster (R-FL) and Tim Griffin (R-AR), are taking this trend one step further, using disturbing intimidation tactics and “watch lists” to discourage constituents from asking them questions:

[CorbinKale]

Q: What do you call the firing of the ATF Director Melson and the Arizona US Attorney Burke?

A: A good start. More hearings scheduled.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20099228-10391695.html

[zelmonster]

I'm (seriously) curious as to why some people feel that government control that comes from a state as opposed to the federal government is less objectionable. Is it about being able to move to a different state if you don't like a particular one's rules but you feel that if it's federal, there's no place else to go?

First of all I do not believe in the strict wording of the Constitution, nor do I believe it is a living-breathing Document. Rather I look at the original intent of the founding fathers (history's greatest gathering of intellectuals, scholars, statesmen, and businessmen, who were willing to die for a Democratic Republic - The United States of America, that they envisioned) regarding the interpretation of the Constitution.

I think James Madison said it best in The Federalist regarding the Tenth Amendment: “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the Federal Government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State Governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce…. The powers reserved to the several states will extend to all the objects, which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the state.”

The powers granted in the Constitution are short and do not include health care, education, agricultural subsidies, assistance to the hungry or old age pensions. These should be the responsibility of the states IMO.

Sure the ability to move from state to state is a part of it. If Fast Eddie, the former governor of my state chooses to raid the fund for roads and highways, and tax all its citizens so Philadelphia and Pittsburgh mass transit can be subsidized in order for their large voter blocks to only have to pay $4.50 on average for their round trip to work, I can chose to leave the state if I so wish (except maybe that my roads are now in such bad shape I may not be able to leave). But if the Federal government does that I’m screwed.

But it comes down to the fact that we are not a democracy, but a Democratic Republic – where all people are protected by our laws, and does not allow mob (majority) rule to make the rules for everyone. California is different from Alabama and should be recognized as such. Majority rule does not dictate everything for everybody under our Constitution. Our Constitution protects the little states, and in such the differences of viewpoints by region. But our government is becoming just that against the Constitution – a Democracy rather than a Democratic Republic. We have allowed the erosion of checks and balances, the erosion of the separation of powers, and the erosion of the Democratic Republic form of government envisioned by our Founding Fathers. We have allowed the federal government to take away our individualism and state’s rights basically because things have been relatively peaceful and our affluence has increased. But this is changing and the Tenth Amendment might come back into focus.

Basically I do not believe the federal government should be allowed to make decisions on just about all facets concerning how we choose to live our lives from cradle to grave. The federal government was granted certain and specific powers under our constitution and should follow the law. If changes are to be made, it should be through Amendments to the Constitution, not by activist judges (on either side of the political isle) who make decisions more on political philosophy rather than the rule of law.

You make a compelling argument regarding pollution Ms Mod. I don’t have all the answers, but I think states should battle those issues out amongst themselves… and maybe in court.

But I will counter you with another scenario… It is right for the federal government to make restrictions on it’s stimulus spending, forcing contractors to recognize unions, adopt existing collective bargaining agreements, work under the terms of a project labor agreement, to pay "prevailing wages and benefits" to employees on projects (with is the “prevailing wage" rate determined by the U.S. Department of Labor and usually is equivalent to the "union scale") in a right-to-work state?

Should the federal government be allowed to tell Boeing which state they can build aircraft in?

And shouldn’t Alaska be allowed to drill in ANWR if they wish to?

[Moderator]

Should the federal government be allowed to tell Boeing which state they can build aircraft in?

It depends on why Boeing is moving. In this case it is with the specific intention of breaking their unions and is a violation of something that is already in place.


And shouldn’t Alaska be allowed to drill in ANWR if they wish to?

NO!!!!!!! It's been set aside as a refuge for a good reason and keeping us dependent on oil is not that reason. Our addiction to oil has kept us economically and politically dependent for far too long. Instead of continuing with the drill baby drill mentality, it's about time we realized we need to change our guzzling ways.

[zelmonster]

It depends on why Boeing is moving. In this case it is with the specific intention of breaking their unions and is a violation of something that is already in place.

I think this pretty much answers the questions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/opinion/nocera-how-democrats-hurt-job-creation.html?_r=1


NO!!!!!!! It's been set aside as a refuge for a good reason and keeping us dependent on oil is not that reason. Our addiction to oil has kept us economically and politically dependent for far too long. Instead of continuing with the drill baby drill mentality, it's about time we realized we need to change our guzzling ways.

Hmmmmm…. I rest my case.
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1185795873555&id=393d171eef870a101cfedeabcbbf6628

http://www.agiweb.org/geotimes/may03/anwr.jpg

[Moderator]

That's one photo. How about the other 10 you can see on this site (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/7WondersofAmerica/popup?id=4682195)? Here's one to whet your appetite.

13347

[jchanic]

It depends on why Boeing is moving. In this case it is with the specific intention of breaking their unions and is a violation of something that is already in place.



NO!!!!!!! It's been set aside as a refuge for a good reason and keeping us dependent on oil is not that reason. Our addiction to oil has kept us economically and politically dependent for far too long. Instead of continuing with the drill baby drill mentality, it's about time we realized we need to change our guzzling ways.

Ms Mod, again I have to respectfully disagree with you. You state that the main reason Boing is building a new plant (note: it is a NEW plant, no jobs are going to be lost in the plant in Washington state) is to bust the union. This is not correct--the reason Boing is building the new plant is that, indeed, South Carolina is a right-to-work state, in which unions are not mandatory. It's up to the workers to decide if they want a union or not.

You also state that drilling in ANWR is wrong because it's been set up as a refuge and should remain immaculate. Drilling in ANWR would involve a fraction of 1% of the size of the refuge, and can be done with an absolute minimum of damage to the environment. Not allowing drilling results in more and more dependency on foreign oil. I'd like to point out that the new "green" automobiles have to be heavily subsidized by the Federal Government (our taxpayer dollars!) or they won't sell. Yes, I agree that we should lessen our dependency on oil, but it also has to be cost effective or it won't succeed. Forcing such a change is just wrong.

John

[Moderator]

And it makes more sense to subsidize oil companies in the form of tax credits when they're already making billions of dollars profit each quarter?

Sorry, but I don't buy the no drilling makes us more dependent. If we continue to have cheap oil/gas, what is our motivation to stop using it? This comes up every time gas prices shoot up--people economize when they're forced to.

[zelmonster]

That's one photo. How about the other 10 you can see on this site (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/7WondersofAmerica/popup?id=4682195)? Here's one to whet your appetite.

13347

But isn't the drilling proposed in the 2,000 acre region of the picture I supplied, not the 19 million other acres which make up ANWR?

[zelmonster]

If we continue to have cheap oil/gas, what is our motivation to stop using it? This comes up every time gas prices shoot up--people economize when they're forced to.

What motivation.... well people like you, and I guess millions others, who demand other forms of energy -- the free market system. Not government mandates for something that for the most part is only in the research/development stage, and not completely viable as of yet.

[themadone06]

Drilling in ANWR is basically a no issue for me. The amount of oil in the area isn't enough to feed the American appetite. It isn't worth the hassle.

As for the Boeing situation. I still can't wrap my head around it. The Federal Government cannot tell a company where to manufacture a product. No one in Washington lost their job, but they did slow Boeings production down enough that they were forced to start up elsewhere. That isn't an attack on a union. That is a union screwing the company that pays them, and then whining when the company has to take action to fulfill it's orders.

[Moderator]

But isn't the drilling proposed in the 2,000 acre region of the picture I supplied, not the 19 million other acres which make up ANWR?

Honestly not sure but doesn't matter to me as I'm one of those who feel that it's just a slippery slope to encroaching on protected areas there and elsewhere all in the name of keeping us on the oil teat. Not to mention the other argument of whether we'd even be the ultimate recipients of that oil. As I understand it, the oil companies sell the oil that is produced (even here) on the world market so there's no guarantee that the U.S. would benefit.

[Moderator]

What motivation.... well people like you, and I guess millions others, who demand other forms of energy -- the free market system. Not government mandates for something that for the most part is only in the research/development stage, and not completely viable as of yet.

That must be why they're not fighting the new government mandates to raise their fuel economy for automobiles. :wink2:

[zelmonster]

That must be why they're not fighting the new government mandates to raise their fuel economy for automobiles. :wink2:

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words... Sometimes it's worth more.

http://smartcarsmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Smart-Car-Crash-Test.jpg

How safe will you feel driving in a vehicle; if the only way they can get to those standards is by making the vehicle so small or so light that it is essentially a death trap?

[Moderator]

I think the automakers can do it in ways that are also safe--they've already done it. And if you're in an accident such as the one above, even a bigger car might not help you.

13349

[zelmonster]

Don’t get one Ms Mod, I want you to stick around for a long long time. And tell SK to stay away from them also… he's got too many good novels left in him which are yet to come.

[Moderator]

Thanks for the concern. :smile2: Have had a Prius since 2002 and already have my name in at the dealer for when the plug-in Prius comes out in 2012. The Kings have several cars including a Volt and 2 Ford Escape hybrids and 2(?) Prius (would that be Prii? :biggrin2:) .

[Spideyman]

Thanks for the concern. :smile2: Have had a Prius since 2002 and already have my name in at the dealer for when the plug-in Prius comes out in 2012. The Kings have several cars including a Volt and 2 Ford Escape hybrids and 2(?) Prius (would that be Prii? :biggrin2:) .


Posted Feb 21st 2011 11:31AM
51
Comments76


The world can now rest easy. Toyota has officially embraced "Prii" as the plural of Prius. The Japanese automaker made the announcement over the weekend at the 2011 Chicago Auto Show after inviting the public at large to vote for the phrase that best fit the company's new gaggle of hybrids. The voting kicked off on January 10th at the Detroit Auto Show, and while Priuses, Prius, Prium and Prien all surfaced as possibilities, Prii took home the majority of votes with 25 percent of the more than 1.8 million ballots cast.

To mark the occasion, Dictionary.com has updated its Prius listing with the appropriate word for more than one Prius hybrid.

[zelmonster]

Thanks for the concern. :smile2: Have had a Prius since 2002 and already have my name in at the dealer for when the plug-in Prius comes out in 2012. The Kings have several cars including a Volt and 2 Ford Escape hybrids and 2(?) Prius (would that be Prii? :biggrin2:) .

Oh my! So what comes after that...
13350

[Moderator]

:biggrin2: AT least it looks cool--every time I see a car with flames, I think of the In-Laws movie and Alan Arkin...I HAVE FLAMES ON MY CAR!!!

[PatInTheHat]

Thanks for the concern. :smile2: Have had a Prius since 2002 and already have my name in at the dealer for when the plug-in Prius comes out in 2012. The Kings have several cars including a Volt and 2 Ford Escape hybrids and 2(?) Prius (would that be Prii? :biggrin2:) .

Priususes I'm thinkin', some kinda clever thinkin' tank marketing thang:rolleyes:.

[CorbinKale]

Interview with ATF Agent whistleblower Vincent Cefalu.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/8/31/atf_whistleblower_us_gun_sting_fast

The ATF’s acting director, Kenneth Melson, had recently faced pressure by Congress to resign. He’ll be replaced by the U.S. attorney in Minnesota, Todd Jones. Earlier this month, three key ATF supervisors of the heavily criticized program were promoted.

For more, we’re joined by one of the agents who helped blow the whistle on Operation Fast and Furious. Vincent Cefalu is a special agent at the BATF.

[zelmonster]

:biggrin2: AT least it looks cool--every time I see a car with flames, I think of the In-Laws movie and Alan Arkin...I HAVE FLAMES ON MY CAR!!!

Great Movie!!!

"Serpentine Shelly. Serpentine!" That bit always cracks me up.

[Moderator]

Great Movie!!!

"Serpentine Shelly. Serpentine!" That bit always cracks me up.

Me, too. And when he runs back to start all over again to do it serpentine-style. :biggrin2:

Sorry, CK, just hijacked your thread. :blush:

[zelmonster]

Hmmm!

May 26, 2010…
http://venturebeat.com/2010/05/26/obama-stumps-for-climate-bill-at-solyndra-giving-it-a-pre-ipo-lift/

The factory was finished a few months ago.

Now with $535 million in stimulus of your and my money…
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/08/31/fremont-based-solyndra-shuts-down-operations-1100-laid-off/

Money well spent huh? Face it... Oil, coal, and natural gas is here to stay in both the short and long term!

[CorbinKale]

Sorry, CK, just hijacked your thread. :blush:

Discussions drift and go on tangents. Roll with it! I like to see people having a good time in here. :)

[CorbinKale]

Laws for thee, but not for me. How dare the little people question their betters?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBwQyg9CjnI

[guido tkp]

corby...are we gonna get an update when one of the attended takes a sh!t...what's your frikkin point...there is no one who does not know yet another govt program went fubar ( heck, you remind us virtually every day )

however, this mess up will not cost anywhere near the amount of lives in our military, police or civilians, as did george bushes fubar in iraq..and that was not an attempt to take over our country any more than your blatherings about this

here's a hint: , govt programs, being run by human beings, fallible as they are, have sometimes gone bad since day one, all those 250+ years ago, and will on into the future...

despite its all egregiousness, it does not present any threat to america or its freedoms

unless, of course, some idiotic, jackbooted thugs who think they have a corner on what is right and what is wrong misuse it as another attempt to attack our people and our govt...like mcveigh

[CorbinKale]

unless, of course, some idiotic, jackbooted thugs who think they have a corner on what is right and what is wrong misuse it as another attempt to attack our people and our govt...like mcveigh

You don't know just how truly accurate that statement is.

McVeigh, the 'militia guy', who wasn't in any militia group. I am quite familiar with that case. He was another sting operation gone FUBAR, though it wasn't the ATF that time. It was the FBI that incited him to violence, then lost control of him.

How many tragedies could have been prevented if the Federal Government would quit getting people killed in order to push their unconstitutional agendas?

[guido tkp]

yeah !! corby...

now this is one i wholeheartedly agree with: this is the most ridiculous thing i've seen in a long time...
i guess these cops (because none of it would go anywhere if they were not complaining: obviously, they're complaining loudly; just not on camera, huh ?) must've forgot they work for us..and the prosecutors ??

i would hope any honest people in ill. would be p.o.'d beyond compare at these most agregious activitiies...and , for that matter, any where else this sort of crap occurs...

hey, mr policman...did it feel like you were winning one for the team by arresting the old guy for selling a frikkin' piece of art (or whatever)..or was he just blocking the entrance to daylight donuts

maybe the guy was trying hard NOT to be on the dole...but i know i sure feel safer now that he's been dealt with !

but...i wonder....how many murders or rapes occured that day while those f^(ks were making the streets safe for non-art lving turds...

cops like this do not, under any circumstances, deserve a badge, a gun or respect.

and please don't give me the new thin blue line...i know there are good cops...but the bad ones make all the rest seem extremely stupid: would you want to be known as a cop from the precinct who arrests old guys just for selling a painting...or for arresting a citizen who just wnats a fair shake...

next thing you know, the jackbooted thugs will be closing down girl scout lemonade stands....OH, WAIT --- they just did that, too !!!

[CorbinKale]

Sharyl Attkisson, at CBS, has been relentless in tracking this international gunrunning scandal. The DoJ cover-up is beginning to unravel.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20100687-10391695.html

ATF whistleblowers revealed the link between the two cases to Congressional investigators and CBS News, saying their supervisors were attempting to cover it up.

Today's letter from the Congressional Republicans also criticizes Hurley's boss, US Attorney Dennis Burke. It says Burke denied a connection between Fast and Furious and Terry's murder in court, but recently "readily admitted the connection" in an interview with Congressional investigators. Burke resigned from his job on Tuesday.

The Justice Department had no immediate comment. Burke and Hurley were not immediately reachable for comment.

[CorbinKale]

Unaccountable government targets poor families in the California desert.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw3RiMdS7sE

[guido tkp]

were it not that this is from the extremely biased, non-news source 'reasontv' i'd be totally infuriated...

since it is , i find it a bit suspect....but infuriating nonetheless: no matter what the reason, the govt should NOT be working in this way.

transparency, anyone ?

[Patricia A]

REPOST: ATTENTION TEXAS AND SURROUNDING AREAS.. WE NEED FIREMEN!!!! Begging for retired and any fireman to call number to help. Were short 25 fireman last night. Cannot contain town of Bastrop, 35 miles away...fire is 16 miles long, 6 miles wide, jumped Colorado river, evacuated entire town and also neighborhood called Steiner ranch of 5500* PLEASE EVERYONE REPOST EVEN IF NOT IN TEXAS.. SOME OF YOUR FRIENDS MAY BE. HELP!! Call 512-978-1187 Please REPOST

I found this posted in Facebook. Too bad firefighters are considered a burden to taxpayers right?

[zelmonster]

Too bad firefighters are considered a burden to taxpayers right?

So the TX should always maintain and pay for an overabundance of firefighters in the event they have a once-in-a-century type of fire? (Oh crap… hope I didn’t just give Governor Moonbeam any ideas over in CA.)

[CorbinKale]

The difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is whether, or not, they contributed to your campaign.

http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html

Hundreds of Longshoremen stormed the Port of Longview early Thursday, overpowered and held security guards, damaged railroad cars, and dumped grain that is the center of a labor dispute, said Longview Police Chief Jim Duscha.

[Patricia A]

So the TX should always maintain and pay for an overabundance of firefighters in the event they have a once-in-a-century type of fire? (Oh crap… hope I didn’t just give Governor Moonbeam any ideas over in CA.)
They should maintain a force of Fire Fighters and First Responders that protect the people and property of TX yup, I don't think there should be an over abundance but there should be enough to respond to the fires, floods, hurricanes, killer tornadoes and lions, tigers and bears that Tx suffers frequently.
I'd much rather pay taxes to a force of that nature than allow the super rich to have a tax free existence while Rome is burning. You know it.
The only thing there should be an over abundance of is rainbows, moonbeams, kitten whiskers and puppy breath... oh for Pete's sake Zel. :barf:

[JohnDalglish]

Hi,

Nero anyone?

Pass me the fiddle!

Long days and pleasant nights

[CorbinKale]

They should maintain a force of Fire Fighters and First Responders that protect the people and property of TX yup, I don't think there should be an over abundance but there should be enough to respond to the fires, floods, hurricanes, killer tornadoes and lions, tigers and bears that Tx suffers frequently.
I'd much rather pay taxes to a force of that nature than allow the super rich to have a tax free existence while Rome is burning. You know it.

I lived in WA State for 10 years, and between a couple of overseas deployments, I was stationed at Ft Lewis. A few years of that time was in G3 AIR/AVN, tracking the Flying Hour Program for the rotary-wing assets. You would be amazed at the Army helicopters and soldiers deployed each year to fight fires in the Northwestern States. Since the Northwestern States pay taxes to the Federal government, I'd say that they have legitimate claim to request those government assets to fight fires.

Would you say the same thing about the Northwestern States, as you say about Texas? I guess if Texas stopped sending tax dollars to DC, we would have plenty of money to provide our own security. Right now, Texas is a donor State, paying more in tax dollars than we receive back in services.

Don't be mean to Texas. That dog will bite you.

[PatInTheHat]

I lived in WA State for 10 years, and between a couple of overseas deployments, I was stationed at Ft Lewis. A few years of that time was in G3 AIR/AVN, tracking the Flying Hour Program for the rotary-wing assets. You would be amazed at the Army helicopters and soldiers deployed each year to fight fires in the Northwestern States. Since the Northwestern States pay taxes to the Federal government, I'd say that they have legitimate claim to request those government assets to fight fires.

Would you say the same thing about the Northwestern States, as you say about Texas? I guess if Texas stopped sending tax dollars to DC, we would have plenty of money to provide our own security. Right now, Texas is a donor State, paying more in tax dollars than we receive back in services.

Don't be mean to Texas. That dog will bite you.

I don't think she whacked Texas on the nose with a newspaper, I think she said she wants you guys to have what you need, that perhaps it was that big boss brainiac, Gub'ner Perry, that may not have utilized his federal monies he said he didn't want any other folks to get, more appropriately, like by not dramatically de-funding every single fire extinguisher and clown's seltzer bottle you have in Lone Star State, even as the evidently very real possible threat of major droughts in the southwest have been warned....oh yeah, there's that sciencey stuff, how silly of me:blush:
And hey, Texas once bit me a right good, and whilst I was givin' it a big juicy bone:glare:...so bein' a big meany has got nothin' to do with it:biggrin2:.

[CorbinKale]

I don't think she whacked Texas on the nose with a newspaper, I think she said she wants you guys to have what you need, that perhaps it was that big boss brainiac, Gub'ner Perry, that may not have utilized his federal monies he said he didn't want any other folks to get, more appropriately, like by not dramatically de-funding every single fire extinguisher and clown's seltzer bottle you have in Lone Star State, even as the evidently very real possible threat of major droughts in the southwest have been warned....oh yeah, there's that sciencey stuff, how silly of me:blush:
And hey, Texas once bit me a right good, and whilst I was givin' it a big juicy bone:glare:...so bein' a big meany has got nothin' to do with it:biggrin2:.

Do we rely on the State to take care of itself, or do we pay the Federal government to take care of the State? If the Federal government demands tribute for protection, then why should the State have to double pay?

Those 'Federal monies' were taken from the States and individuals. It is already our money. If we don't get the protection that the Federal government promises in return, then we should stop paying the Federal government and just take care of our own State. Don't get me started on Perry. He advocates secession, but as President, he would send in Federal troops to prevent it. Perry is a partisan politician, playing everyone against everyone to advance himself. Don't confuse that guy's political antics with the resolve of the average Texan.

[CorbinKale]

A 'third gun' reveals that the FBI was ALSO involved in the cover-up of Agent Terry's murder. So BOTH the FBI and ATF were facilitating international gunrunning, but DoJ still denies any knowledge. Incompetence or criminal intent?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/09/exclusive-third-gun-linked-to-fast-and-furious-identified-at-border-agents/#

A third gun linked to "Operation Fast and Furious" was found at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, new documents obtained exclusively by Fox News suggest, contradicting earlier assertions by federal agencies that police found only two weapons tied to the federal government's now infamous gun interdiction scandal.

Sources say emails support their contention that the FBI concealed evidence to protect a confidential informant. Sources close to the Terry case say the FBI informant works inside a major Mexican cartel and provided the money to obtain the weapons used to kill Terry.

Unlike the two AK-style assault weapons found at the scene, the third weapon could more easily be linked to the informant. To prevent that from happening, sources say, the third gun "disappeared."

[PatInTheHat]

Do we rely on the State to take care of itself, or do we pay the Federal government to take care of the State? If the Federal government demands tribute for protection, then why should the State have to double pay?

Those 'Federal monies' were taken from the States and individuals. It is already our money. If we don't get the protection that the Federal government promises in return, then we should stop paying the Federal government and just take care of our own State. Don't get me started on Perry. He advocates secession, but as President, he would send in Federal troops to prevent it. Perry is a partisan politician, playing everyone against everyone to advance himself. Don't confuse that guy's political antics with the resolve of the average Texan.

Huh:umm:?
Uhhh yeah, like you both said.

Oh, and nothing about Perry confuses me, not anything regarding his political & social ambitions, hopes, dreams, & desires at any rate:wink2:.

[randallFlaggfan1]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/07/...ant/index.html


So the government of Maryland enters home, guns blazing, no questions asked, and brought down two innocent canine's...? WTH!?! Forget about the fact that their owners were recipients of said package containing marijuana, which-from my understanding-they send to their home...the dogs were just in their way, IMO!


("All thing serve the Beam")

[PatInTheHat]

And all too often there ain't even any o' that Satan weed, just bad/false information, and way too much jack booted law dawg brand testosterone...oh yeah, and a bigger body count for that infamously unsuccessful wee little War On Drugs:glare:.
This is a Huff post story a few months old, but I've heard nothing about it since right after it happened...it's pretty horrifying.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html

[Patricia A]

I lived in WA State for 10 years, and between a couple of overseas deployments, I was stationed at Ft Lewis. A few years of that time was in G3 AIR/AVN, tracking the Flying Hour Program for the rotary-wing assets. You would be amazed at the Army helicopters and soldiers deployed each year to fight fires in the Northwestern States. Since the Northwestern States pay taxes to the Federal government, I'd say that they have legitimate claim to request those government assets to fight fires.

Would you say the same thing about the Northwestern States, as you say about Texas? I guess if Texas stopped sending tax dollars to DC, we would have plenty of money to provide our own security. Right now, Texas is a donor State, paying more in tax dollars than we receive back in services.

Don't be mean to Texas. That dog will bite you.


I've got 25 years of North Texas time in and I know how it rolls, but thanks for the heads up.

To make myself clear, what I'm saying is that it's a GD crying shame that Texas is suffering the way she is and it breaks my heart to see it happening.

For Christ's sake they are begging old men to come to TX on their own dime to put out fires that young, trained able bodied men and women should be fighting.
Personally I'd pay tax till I bled for services that protect us from things we can't protect ourselves from alone.

What I am concerned about are the misled teabag dangling taxophobes, and the loophole, free ride millionaires that aren't kicking into the pot they are swimming in while me and nearly everyone else I know are either bleeding or burning.
That makes me mad, but I try to keep my thinking cap on and keep a rational perspective and so I don't have the inclination or time to be ascairt of no dogs.
Thanks for the warning though.

[CorbinKale]

I've got 25 years of North Texas time in and I know how it rolls, but thanks for the heads up.

To make myself clear, what I'm saying is that it's a GD crying shame that Texas is suffering the way she is and it breaks my heart to see it happening.

For Christ's sake they are begging old men to come to TX on their own dime to put out fires that young, trained able bodied men and women should be fighting.
Personally I'd pay tax till I bled for services that protect us from things we can't protect ourselves from alone.

What I am concerned about are the misled teabag dangling taxophobes, and the loophole, free ride millionaires that aren't kicking into the pot they are swimming in while me and nearly everyone else I know are either bleeding or burning.
That makes me mad, but I try to keep my thinking cap on and keep a rational perspective and so I don't have the inclination or time to be ascairt of no dogs.
Thanks for the warning though.

I think it was a crime that Obama's job czar's corporation, GE, paid no taxes, too. I don't recall Immelt dangling teabags, but he sure is a taxophobe!

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

And all too often there ain't even any o' that Satan weed, just bad/false information, and way too much jack booted law dawg brand testosterone...oh yeah, and a bigger body count for that infamously unsuccessful wee little War On Drugs:glare:.
This is a Huff post story a few months old, but I've heard nothing about it since right after it happened...it's pretty horrifying.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html

Not even locally, here in the town where it happened, has there been a whole lot of follow-up on this story. There were a couple of little items on the last page of the second section of the daily paper about the investigation that took place. After a week or two of fiddle-fawing around, the SWAT team were exonerated for their behavior in this incident. Big surprise, huh? The way I remember it, the official line went something like "We have determined that the use of potentially excessive force was justified, because during the same operation, other agents did in fact find drugs in the homes of some of Jose Guereno's relatives."

Some outrage was expressed in the Spanish-language press, but the story died real fast even there.

But I'll betcha that we start seeing Guereno's picture on posters, like in marches and stuff. Probably will get some songs written about him as well.

We all float down here.

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

Whoops, I got his name wrong. It's Guerena, not Guereno.

We all flute down here.

[PatInTheHat]

Not even locally, here in the town where it happened, has there been a whole lot of follow-up on this story. There were a couple of little items on the last page of the second section of the daily paper about the investigation that took place. After a week or two of fiddle-fawing around, the SWAT team were exonerated for their behavior in this incident. Big surprise, huh? The way I remember it, the official line went something like "We have determined that the use of potentially excessive force was justified, because during the same operation, other agents did in fact find drugs in the homes of some of Jose Guereno's relatives."

Some outrage was expressed in the Spanish-language press, but the story died real fast even there.

But I'll betcha that we start seeing Guereno's picture on posters, like in marches and stuff. Probably will get some songs written about him as well.

We all float down here.
Wow:down:.
Yeah this story died nationally before it barely even broke, but I really thought at the very least, it would have been continued being a much bigger deal on the local level.
I sure hope somebody picks it up the ball and runs with it, besides say High Times magazine, I know they'll cover it, and probably Playboy, and a few other mags will give it some attention (if they haven't already), but I ain't gonna be holdin' my breath either.

[Patricia A]

I think it was a crime that Obama's job czar's corporation, GE, paid no taxes, too. I don't recall Immelt dangling teabags, but he sure is a taxophobe!

I agree that Immelt may be a case of a fox guarding a hen-house but that's not what I was talking about.

You know, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here on the subject of Texas being worth putting out when she's on fire and believing that the government should be there to help, so let me just ask you a question.

Is there anything about a government of, by and for the people that you like?

[Haunted]

WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED IN THE LAST 2065 YEARS ?????

" The budget should be balanced,
the Treasury should be refilled,
public debt should be reduced,
the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled,
the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt.
People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
-- CICERO , 55BC

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

Cut +_ paste lifted from this page: http://www.cannonfalls.com/main.asp?SectionID=3&SubSectionID=3&ArticleID=18834&TM=81766.68

<snip>
The first documented source of that quote has been traced back to a book about Cicero and published in 1965. It was a fictional account written by Taylor Caldwell titled "A Pillar of Iron." Professor John H. Collins from Northern Illinois University identified Caldwell's book as being the original source of the undocumented quote back in April, 1971. He stated the quote was on page 483 of his edition. The author, Caldwell, was herself, an extreme right wing conservative, often writing for the John Birch Society's, "American Opinion."

Over the years the quote has been modified to make it more believable. In Caldwell's book, the last line of the quote says, "The mobs should be forced to work and not depend on government for subsistence. " A later version of the quote changes "lest Rome become bankrupt" to "lest Rome fall." Apparently someone realized that Cicero wouldn't be using the word bankrupt because that word wasn't invented for another 1,500 years.
</snip>

We all float downhere.

[CorbinKale]

I agree that Immelt may be a case of a fox guarding a hen-house but that's not what I was talking about.

You know, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here on the subject of Texas being worth putting out when she's on fire and believing that the government should be there to help, so let me just ask you a question.

Is there anything about a government of, by and for the people that you like?

Yes. I think our Constitutional government is a fantastic idea, and I am looking forward to trying it.

[omm poppa mow mow]

Who knew the ACLU had a sense of humor? I'm impressed.

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf (http://www.stephenking.com/forums/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aclu.org%2Fpizza%2Fimage s%2Fscreen.swf)

:rofl:

or...back to the top as they say

[omm poppa mow mow]

Good advice from Homeland Security.

http://www.ready.gov/ (http://www.stephenking.com/forums/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ready.gov%2F)

I think it is funny that when I have given the same advice, I was accused of fear-mongering.:laugh:

:rofl:

It's a wonderful world!

[Patricia A]

Yes. I think our Constitutional government is a fantastic idea, and I am looking forward to trying it.
Oh you will just love it!
It's a great work in progress.

[omm poppa mow mow]

The domestic enemies of the Constitution have finally reached the Rubicon. Casus belli.

"The White House declined on Thursday to rule out that President Barack Obama might sign future legislation, such as an immigration reform measure, that has not been put to a recorded yea-or-nay vote in both houses of Congress."

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/63032 (http://www.stephenking.com/forums/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnsnews.com%2Fnews%2Fart icle%2F63032)

Article I, Section 7 of the U.S. Constitution states:

"Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively.”

Back to the top on this one...noted...marked...future ref. :)

[themadone06]

It's a great work in progress.

The amendment process is a beautiful thing.

[omm poppa mow mow]

Looks like CBS is hammering the ATF, relentlessly. Great reporting on our government illegally running guns into Mexico, since 2008. Anti-gun groups, suddenly, fall silent. How odd. Illegal smuggling of guns into Mexico seemed pretty important to them a year ago.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTkEFQlLGao

This is what is meant by marginalizing, minimizing...oh, that prison still open in Cuba? so on and so forth. But then, look at what happened to the Branch Davidians, and Slick Willie was re-elected.

[omm poppa mow mow]

Last year, when the popular gun control myth was that 90% of the guns used in drug violence in Mexico were traced back to US sources, I said it was probably because of all the guns our government sends to the Mexican government. I had no idea that the ATF was involved in additional gunrunning to the cartels. When I DID learn of the international smuggling operation, I posited that this was an elaborate ruse to create a crisis that could be used as an excuse for MORE gun control. I am sure there were many, who thought it was just another crazy theory, but now we have the Cummings/Schumer show hearings tomorrow. I take no pleasure in being right on this one. They will use the ATF's illegal operation to justify additional gun control. Never let a crisis go to waste, even if you have to create the crisis yourself.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/cummings-schumer-to-hold-gunwalker-show-trial-for-gun-rights?CID=examiner_alerts_article



hmmmm, I'm reminded of the Branch Davidians....they could have easily arrested Koresh when he went to town. Instead, we had Janet Reno, renting a tank, and the mass of American stood by (or sat in front of their dam tee-vees) and were astounded, yes, there was that...but the commander in chief at the time was re-elected.

I'd say I'm looking forward to watching the media (that by and large is behind Obama) in the coming year....as, alas, this is the slowest year on record for me...in 22 years...and I don't expect it to get better, not until the election next year or some time after. Till then...dunno....should invest in some smoke.

[omm poppa mow mow]

Jon Stewart explains the 'Gunwalker' debacle.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-21-2011/the-fast-and-the-furious---mexico-grift (http://www.stephenking.com/forums/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedailyshow.com%2Fwatch %2Ftue-june-21-2011%2Fthe-fast-and-the-furious---mexico-grift)


and whom does jon quote? fox news. or....faux news or any of the other many misnomers. what? the other media does not have a cause to report the news?

[CorbinKale]

Oh you will just love it!
It's a great work in progress.

Yeah, I've seen the progression of decay and corruption. I don't think it can be saved at this point. The best we can hope for is to survive the collapse, and rebuild on the other side. Hope to see you for the restoration!

[Patricia A]

The amendment process is a beautiful thing.

Indeed. The ability to amend The Constitution of the United States of America was a built in feature, work in progress and all.
Historically speaking, America is a new country. We are still perfecting the art of uniting a nation.
So far I'm having fun, how 'bout y'all.

[zelmonster]

Our justice system at work!

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan?page=1

Be afraid, be very afraid!

[guido tkp]

"...seen the decay...": yup, all that all them (d)'s and, especially, all those blacks keep forcing onto that great society, right ?

"...don't think it can be saved...": as in, you're not willing to be part of what it is we've got, and, like you've threatened so many times, you can't wait to help in it's downfall...

"hope to see you...": of course, that won't happen, either...not unless we all throw ourselves on your mercy, beg forgiveness for our trespasses and plead blind fealty to your new world order, right ?

otherwise..as you've stated, you are ready to take care of us unconstitutional heathens, right ?

will slavery be back: will blacks once again be only 3/4's a human being ?

what'll you do with the gay americans...oh, i'm sorry, there probably is no such thing as a gay american, right: that'd be against gods law, and gods law is what all the rest of us are not paying attention to, right ?

and all the spi....i mean illegal aliens...they'll all be rounded up and sent back home, right ?

will they be shot if they try to re-cross....since, y'know, it is far cheaper to buy one bullet AND you don't want to raise tax revenues to take care of that long, long border, right ?

what about the muslims..they were never part of the founding fathers...do they go home too ?

the jews ???

do tell...

just what are all these unconstitutional acts worthy of your continuous condemnation of our beloved country...

who are all these constitutional traitors, and what exactly will you and your oath-taking brethren do with those who do not believe as you do when the 'fall' of america you lust after so arrives

what will you do, as the new leaders of the new america (or will it be called something else: how about Hitlerville...nice ring, right to rebuild a more 'proper', authentic america on that fabled other side of our upcoming demise

pray tell...fill the room with your eloquence....

[Patricia A]

Our justice system at work!

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan?page=1

Be afraid, be very afraid!

Don't be afraid, do something about it.
If you don't like the way something works, work to change it.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself... great words to live by.

[CorbinKale]

"...seen the decay...": yup, all that all them (d)'s and, especially, all those blacks keep forcing onto that great society, right ?

"...don't think it can be saved...": as in, you're not willing to be part of what it is we've got, and, like you've threatened so many times, you can't wait to help in it's downfall...

"hope to see you...": of course, that won't happen, either...not unless we all throw ourselves on your mercy, beg forgiveness for our trespasses and plead blind fealty to your new world order, right ?

otherwise..as you've stated, you are ready to take care of us unconstitutional heathens, right ?

will slavery be back: will blacks once again be only 3/4's a human being ?

what'll you do with the gay americans...oh, i'm sorry, there probably is no such thing as a gay american, right: that'd be against gods law, and gods law is what all the rest of us are not paying attention to, right ?

and all the spi....i mean illegal aliens...they'll all be rounded up and sent back home, right ?

will they be shot if they try to re-cross....since, y'know, it is far cheaper to buy one bullet AND you don't want to raise tax revenues to take care of that long, long border, right ?

what about the muslims..they were never part of the founding fathers...do they go home too ?

the jews ???

do tell...

just what are all these unconstitutional acts worthy of your continuous condemnation of our beloved country...

who are all these constitutional traitors, and what exactly will you and your oath-taking brethren do with those who do not believe as you do when the 'fall' of america you lust after so arrives

what will you do, as the new leaders of the new america (or will it be called something else: how about Hitlerville...nice ring, right to rebuild a more 'proper', authentic america on that fabled other side of our upcoming demise

pray tell...fill the room with your eloquence....

Wow, ok. So much to wade through...

The 3/5 compromise was an anti-slavery measure to reduce the representation of slave states in the Federal government. Don't feel stupid, though. Lots of folks don't catch that in 8th grade History. Once you research the issue, you'll understand.

I don't care if people are gay. It doesn't impact me in the slightest.

With regard to immigration law, I expect it to be enforced, regardless of the nationality of the invader.

The traitors are those, who swear to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic, then break that Oath by subverting and twisting the Constitution. I and my Oath-sworn brethren only advocate for education on the Constitution, and the legal reality that their Oath requires them to stand down when given unconstitutional, unlawful orders. We are an outreach organization, not a militia.

[guido tkp]

i would be more than suspect of anything printed in NR...they are not known for stating all the facts, especially if it makes either the govt or a (d) look bad...and, in this case, they kinda get both, right ?

throughout our history, the 'police' have used tactics similar to this to stop business that other amercian business' did not want in competition..so, who knows...

but i'd like to see more 'facts' : trust but verify

[guido tkp]

so much to wade through...and yet you barely did...avoided most of it and threw up some half-assed nothingness that explains none of your rants, warnings or tirades

just what, pray tell, do you expect the govt, at any level, to actually be able to do about illegal immigration...that, of course they are not already doing, have been doing....and where will the staggering amount of money to do those new actions come from, since we can't raise taxes, right ?

believe it or not, contrary to your rather deluded belief, the feds, and the individual states, have been doing quite a bit about this for, like, ever....but with that gigantic, open, pourous border, stretching, i believe from texas to california (that's a mighty long piece o' turf, there tex !), it isn't quite like you can put up a stop sign and have it do any good...even if it was bi-lingual

what's that ? no solution offered ??

each of these idiocies you submit before us...page after page of it, actually...are not indicative of a govt gone crazy-stupid, but, much like abu ghraib, a moment where some individuals went off the farm: hey bud, **** happens..get over it and help fix it..but your repeated call for revolutions when things aren't the way you like it is not a group of honest men or women trying to protect the honor of the country or the divinity of how you see the Constitution

if you are not smart enough to know none of these stories, some true, some not, are indicative of the everyday working stiffs and elected individuals representing us at every level of govt, then you have a much more serious problem than your inability to notice human beings can sometimes screw up

and, remember,while you're carrying that torch of dislike for our govt, that almost all of them work really hard, everyday, to continue to see to it that we, almost more than anybody else on the face of this entire planet, both now, in the past, (and, unless you get your way), most likely into the future live in the freest, most up-to-date society this world has ever seen

to not think that us mere mortals might not screw up once in a while is pretty preposterous..unlike you and your insipid oath-takers...the rest of us are pretty fallible: we ain't perfect like you, corby !

to consistently say that all of is treachery wherein we are all about to be taken over is the single most stupid thing i've ever heard

to see that almost all of these rantings arrive, coincidentally, not when g. bush, or r. reagan, or r. nixon do all the big bad things they did...but only when we get a black guy in the oval office, smacks of something quite a bit different

i'm a 49 year old white guy...i live in ks, have for 30 year...before that, it was a stint in ga., before that n.j.

i ain't stupid...there is nothing that was more a threat to our constitution and our way of life than bush2's foray into iraq and the laws and bills passed, right after 9/11, that have come far closer to invading our privacies and stripping away our rights than those brought forth by my own party then...and i saw none of you oath-takers or constitution protectors then

today, my party is working double overtime to strip away the constitutional rights of taxpaying american women thru anti abortion regulations and restrictions...and your group is silent

the same party is continually working just as feverishly to deny american citizens their god given right to marry who they want...and once again, from you and yours: silence

hey, i got an idea...all you oath-takers start fighting for all these individual rights...you prove to me that you are seriously and clearly intent on defending life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for every single taxpaying american citizen: do that..accomplish that...and i'll buy a gun and march in your parade

[themadone06]

to see that almost all of these rantings arrive, coincidentally, not when g. bush, or r. reagan, or r. nixon do all the big bad things they did...but only when we get a black guy in the oval office, smacks of something quite a bit different

i'm a 49 year old white guy...i live in ks, have for 30 year...before that, it was a stint in ga., before that n.j.

i ain't stupid...there is nothing that was more a threat to our constitution and our way of life than bush2's foray into iraq and the laws and bills passed, right after 9/11, that have come far closer to invading our privacies and stripping away our rights than those brought forth by my own party then...and i saw none of you oath-takers or constitution protectors then

today, my party is working double overtime to strip away the constitutional rights of taxpaying american women thru anti abortion regulations and restrictions...and your group is silent

the same party is continually working just as feverishly to deny american citizens their god given right to marry who they want...and once again, from you and yours: silence

hey, i got an idea...all you oath-takers start fighting for all these individual rights...you prove to me that you are seriously and clearly intent on defending life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for every single taxpaying american citizen: do that..accomplish that...and i'll buy a gun and march in your parade

I see the race card is being played again :rolleyes:

As for the Iraq thing I think you are 100% right, but i also believe the same with the Libya intervention. George W. Bush did a lot of things that went against the Constitution. I did not like him for that. He helped pass the Patriot Act (highly unconstitutional), but also Barack Obama chose to the extend the legislation. Remember when it was passed unanimously, except for Ron Paul and some Dems? I think Obama was even outspoken against it at one point. It is quite convenient to see such a turn around by Dems and Obama once they were in power. I know one guy that doesn't flip flop and his name is Ron Paul.

I'll agree that Republicans are wasting their time with attacking abortion. It is a huge waste of time. I don't see the point. I don't think Roe v. Wade is right, because it over extends the power of the Federal Government. I always thought it should be a state's rights issue. I'll just leave it at that. I also don't understand why they keep trying to defund the Healthcare Mandate Act. It will be taken care of in the courts. Mostly from what I've witnessed in this Congress is pandering to their party, but really I guess that wasn't any different than the last Congress. Why was it again they couldn't pass a budget? Or was that they refused to pass a budget?

As for marriage, it is not a God given right. It is not even a Constitutional right. The Federal Government has no jurisdiction over marriage. It has always been a state issue, and it should remain a state issue. I'm perfectly fine with gay marriage, but it should be left up to the states to decide if they want to allow it. Ohio has already said no, and it was by a wide margin. If that is the case then they should be given civil unions.

As for Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness, there is no such thing until Patriot Act is repealed. I'd say the same for the Healthcare Mandate, but that is for another argument. This is all coming for a Libertarian/Constitutionalist. I don't follow the parties, and American politics disgusts me at this point. Personally, I think anyone that puts a R or D by their name is at fault. They are too busy pandering to their party, and trying to get their man/woman elected, that they have lost sight of what is really important.

Go Ron Paul!

[CorbinKale]

so much to wade through...and yet you barely did...avoided most of it and threw up some half-assed nothingness that explains none of your rants, warnings or tirades

just what, pray tell, do you expect the govt, at any level, to actually be able to do about illegal immigration...that, of course they are not already doing, have been doing....and where will the staggering amount of money to do those new actions come from, since we can't raise taxes, right ?

believe it or not, contrary to your rather deluded belief, the feds, and the individual states, have been doing quite a bit about this for, like, ever....but with that gigantic, open, pourous border, stretching, i believe from texas to california (that's a mighty long piece o' turf, there tex !), it isn't quite like you can put up a stop sign and have it do any good...even if it was bi-lingual

what's that ? no solution offered ??

each of these idiocies you submit before us...page after page of it, actually...are not indicative of a govt gone crazy-stupid, but, much like abu ghraib, a moment where some individuals went off the farm: hey bud, **** happens..get over it and help fix it..but your repeated call for revolutions when things aren't the way you like it is not a group of honest men or women trying to protect the honor of the country or the divinity of how you see the Constitution

if you are not smart enough to know none of these stories, some true, some not, are indicative of the everyday working stiffs and elected individuals representing us at every level of govt, then you have a much more serious problem than your inability to notice human beings can sometimes screw up

and, remember,while you're carrying that torch of dislike for our govt, that almost all of them work really hard, everyday, to continue to see to it that we, almost more than anybody else on the face of this entire planet, both now, in the past, (and, unless you get your way), most likely into the future live in the freest, most up-to-date society this world has ever seen

to not think that us mere mortals might not screw up once in a while is pretty preposterous..unlike you and your insipid oath-takers...the rest of us are pretty fallible: we ain't perfect like you, corby !

to consistently say that all of is treachery wherein we are all about to be taken over is the single most stupid thing i've ever heard

to see that almost all of these rantings arrive, coincidentally, not when g. bush, or r. reagan, or r. nixon do all the big bad things they did...but only when we get a black guy in the oval office, smacks of something quite a bit different

i'm a 49 year old white guy...i live in ks, have for 30 year...before that, it was a stint in ga., before that n.j.

i ain't stupid...there is nothing that was more a threat to our constitution and our way of life than bush2's foray into iraq and the laws and bills passed, right after 9/11, that have come far closer to invading our privacies and stripping away our rights than those brought forth by my own party then...and i saw none of you oath-takers or constitution protectors then

today, my party is working double overtime to strip away the constitutional rights of taxpaying american women thru anti abortion regulations and restrictions...and your group is silent

the same party is continually working just as feverishly to deny american citizens their god given right to marry who they want...and once again, from you and yours: silence

hey, i got an idea...all you oath-takers start fighting for all these individual rights...you prove to me that you are seriously and clearly intent on defending life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for every single taxpaying american citizen: do that..accomplish that...and i'll buy a gun and march in your parade

I thought I covered everything, except addressing your obligatory racist/nazi taunts, and what would be the point of that? You think everyone who has a difference of opinion is a racist/nazi. You must have gotten to the game late to have missed my posts where I point out Bush's unconstitutional antics. There was plenty of it, but the Dems actually approved of those, and wanted to go after him on some bogus National Guard conspiracy, instead of his actual crimes. You remember the one that destroyed Dan Rather? I have stated my views plainly on most of the controversial issues we face. Just search for the thread covering the issue you want my opinion on, and there it will be.

With regard to your purchasing a firearm and joining us, your hateful style and constant name calling would preclude your membership in Oath Keepers. Also, you'd have to take a Constitutional Oath which, in light of your comments in this forum, would be made with reservations and purposes of evasion. We are sworn to support the Constitution, as a component of our chosen careers, just like the President is, only we take our Oaths seriously. We are an educational organization, and we don't 'fight' for every issue that pops up. We teach 'inaction', specifically, that we are to refuse to act, when given unlawful orders. To reach our target demographic (our membership is comprised of police, military, first responders...) we have to take care that we don't become a proscribed organization by DoD. To that end, we are very selective with our approval process. If we let some loose cannon join, they could destroy everything we have worked towards.

There are plenty of other organizations that address the myriad issues of the day. Deriding Oath Keepers for not addressing your pet issues, that the organization was never intended to address, is as silly as deriding the Wright brothers for not flying to the moon.

[guido tkp]

actually, corby...i tend to only think that those that continually act like that type of person may, in fact, be so: y'know....if the shoe fits..?

and, please, don't give yourself too quick a pat on the back on your supposed role as one of the worlds great constitutionalists scholars: you've actually not "sworn to support the constitution": you've sworn only to support the (often extreme) views of your leaders and their interpretations of the constitution.

the fact of the matter is this group has made it clear that they don't approve of many of the decisions, laws and governances made, collectively, down through the years...and you're waiting, if not overtly willing, to see it all come crashing to some sort of end.
you've no real desire to do anything to actually help with any problems that occur, economic or otherwise, by actually trying to get along with those of differing (yet every bit as much american) points of view...you'd rather just sit by and throw bric-bracs at whomever you deem an unworthy...as 'unconstitutional'

never mind that our electoral system is set up to give the widest possible allowance to as many individual voices and as many interpretations of individual freedom: you and your group have, single-handedly, decided what is or is not 'constitutional'...and you'll pledge allegiance not to our country, but to your group: you don't fight for every issue because you simply do not truly believe in freedom for all americans; you believe in your version only

i find it interesting that someone who regularly blasts our govt, continually tells us the current president wants nothing more than to take rights away, makes near daily calls for our governments downfall (so, of course, you may then set up your version, right?) has the audacity to say i'm pandering hate speech when all i believe in is good old all-american freedom for all and a healthy dose of reality...with the regular application thereof !

i'd be the first in line, if your organization was as pure as you are trying so hard to make it seem...but it is not

our govt does make mistakes: always has, probably always will...but it is up to each and every one of us, together, to decide when it has crossed the line and what to do about it...not some shadowy organization with an unclear agenda and its own 'oath'

[CorbinKale]

Looks like Holder's lies are catching up with him. The administration's illegal gunrunning into Mexico just won't go away. With the election looming on the horizon, and ATF former Director Melson testifying in private, without DoJ involvement, who knows what bombshells will be revealed over the next year? It's like The Green Mile, all over. You KNOW the story is going to be good, but it's frustrating having to wait for the next chapters.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JaDEShZIvQ

[themadone06]

and, please, don't give yourself too quick a pat on the back on your supposed role as one of the worlds great constitutionalists scholars: you've actually not "sworn to support the constitution": you've sworn only to support the (often extreme) views of your leaders and their interpretations of the constitution.



Actually, I believe Corby has said in the past that he volunteered for military service in his youth. If that is the case he took an oath to the American Government to protect and serve the Constitution. If you believe that the Government is straying from its founding document what are you suppose to do? Just sit back and say, "Oh it's hunky-dory, do whatever you want, I don't mind... you're my leader". Boooooo to that kind of thinking. A complacent voter/citizen is a dangerous person.

[themadone06]

Looks like Holder's lies are catching up with him. The administration's illegal gunrunning into Mexico just won't go away. With the election looming on the horizon, and ATF former Director Melson testifying in private, without DoJ involvement, who knows what bombshells will be revealed over the next year? It's like The Green Mile, all over. You KNOW the story is going to be good, but it's frustrating having to wait for the next chapters.


Doesn't it seem like the Administration is just sitting on their hands about all of this. I feel like the Solyndra crap has made more headlines, and that only cost the taxpayers $500,000,000. This gun running has cost people their lives, including American citizens. If I was Obama there is no way Holder would still have a job.

[CorbinKale]

actually, corby...i tend to only think that those that continually act like that type of person may, in fact, be so: y'know....if the shoe fits..?

and, please, don't give yourself too quick a pat on the back on your supposed role as one of the worlds great constitutionalists scholars: you've actually not "sworn to support the constitution": you've sworn only to support the (often extreme) views of your leaders and their interpretations of the constitution.

the fact of the matter is this group has made it clear that they don't approve of many of the decisions, laws and governances made, collectively, down through the years...and you're waiting, if not overtly willing, to see it all come crashing to some sort of end.
you've no real desire to do anything to actually help with any problems that occur, economic or otherwise, by actually trying to get along with those of differing (yet every bit as much american) points of view...you'd rather just sit by and throw bric-bracs at whomever you deem an unworthy...as 'unconstitutional'

never mind that our electoral system is set up to give the widest possible allowance to as many individual voices and as many interpretations of individual freedom: you and your group have, single-handedly, decided what is or is not 'constitutional'...and you'll pledge allegiance not to our country, but to your group: you don't fight for every issue because you simply do not truly believe in freedom for all americans; you believe in your version only

i find it interesting that someone who regularly blasts our govt, continually tells us the current president wants nothing more than to take rights away, makes near daily calls for our governments downfall (so, of course, you may then set up your version, right?) has the audacity to say i'm pandering hate speech when all i believe in is good old all-american freedom for all and a healthy dose of reality...with the regular application thereof !

i'd be the first in line, if your organization was as pure as you are trying so hard to make it seem...but it is not

our govt does make mistakes: always has, probably always will...but it is up to each and every one of us, together, to decide when it has crossed the line and what to do about it...not some shadowy organization with an unclear agenda and its own 'oath'

The thing I like about your posts is that they are so easily refuted.

Clearly, you have never actually read a Constitutional Oath. (HINT: It is called a Constitutional Oath for a reason) There are various versions, according to the position of public service being entered into, but they are all to support and defend the Constitution. My Oath of enlistment in the Army included the phrase "obey the orders of the President and the officers appointed over me", but those orders must be lawful orders and "in accordance with regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice". The President may not order me to murder civilians, for example (see My Lai Massacre and Nuremburg Trials). That would be an unlawful order, and it is my duty to stand down, rather than commit criminal acts. In the US, we swear an Oath to the supreme law that guarantees our Rights, not to an individual. Ironically, in light of your propensity to call people nazis, the swearing of an Oath to a particular leader is just what the nazis did. Are those new shoes? :rofl:

As for my calling for the downfall of the United States, it should be a simple task to link one of my posts where that occurred. You fling wild accusations, in the hopes that people will believe you if you repeat them enough. That only works on the simple-minded. The good folks on this board are not so easily duped.

Oath Keepers does not have any Oath other than the Oath we took as condition of our public service. There is no Oath to Oath Keepers, only to the United States Constitution. Oath Keepers is not a shadowy organization. We are VERY open about our agenda, which is to educate the current serving, who have sworn a Constitutional Oath, about their duty to read the Constitution and concurrent writings of the Founders, and to understand that their Oath requires them to stand down when issued unlawful orders. A key component of Oath Keepers is a list of 10 unlawful orders that have been issed and obeyed on our soil. When we are aware of the unlawful orders that have been issued in the past, and our duty to refuse such unlawful orders, we are better prepared to respond in a way that protects our fellow citizens and ourselves.

Here is a link to the orders we will refuse to obey: http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/

[CorbinKale]

Doesn't it seem like the Administration is just sitting on their hands about all of this. I feel like the Solyndra crap has made more headlines, and that only cost the taxpayers $500,000,000. This gun running has cost people their lives, including American citizens. If I was Obama there is no way Holder would still have a job.

I think Holder did exactly what Obama told him to do. Obama won't throw Holder under the bus, until the last possible moment.

[themadone06]

I think Holder did exactly what Obama told him to do. Obama won't throw Holder under the bus, until the last possible moment.

I'd still prefer to think that the President of the United States isn't that stupid. Even though, it is pretty stupid that Holder still has a job, but you can that about half of Obama's Cabinet. The only one I would give a satisfactory job performance too is Hilary. Man I really wish I had that Democratic Primary vote back :)

[CorbinKale]

I'd still prefer to think that the President of the United States isn't that stupid. Even though, it is pretty stupid that Holder still has a job, but you can that about half of Obama's Cabinet. The only one I would give a satisfactory job performance too is Hilary. Man I really wish I had that Democratic Primary vote back :)

You'll never convince them that their crime was stupid, even if it ends disasterously for them. It is right in line with Alinsky tactics. The ends justify the means and never let a crisis go to waste. If you want to make a gun control omlet, you have to rack up a body count. Remember the calls for more gun control over claims that US gun stores were arming the Mexican drug cartels a few years ago? Then, when the ridiculous claims that 90% of the Mexican drug crime guns came from US sources turned out to be false, the story died. But why let a 'crisis' go to waste? We have an unaccountable ATF that can FORCE gun stores to sell to criminals, thus ensuring that the US gun stores are, indeed, supplying the drug cartels. When the act of war against our southern neighbor was finally exposed by honorable men, who refused to commit criminal acts under color of law, what was the response by administration friendly Congressmen? Calls for more gun control, of course! Heads they win, tails, we lose.

They will never think of what they did as stupid. They may think their timing was off, but they will try again. And again. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

[guido tkp]

except...if you'd actually bothered to research the whole mess, it started with the bush admin, and continued on, as programs often, if not always, do...probably w/o any interference by obama or holder, simply because that is the way things always work in agencies...

but to the oathkeepers, it seems, if the bush admin did it, it was tolerable: if the obama admin did it, it is treason

but, of course, if it feeds your ego to continually perpetrate the lie that obama is out for your guns..or ready to dismantle freedom, as the oathkeepers continually bray on about...then why bother with the truth, right?

it does make it easier to get the yokels who love to yell on about barack HUSSEIN obama, or think hank jr might be on to something...

did some independent reading, rather than the manifestos you keep sending everyone to, about this so-called patriot group, the oathkeepers...what i read only makes my feelings about this group even more concrete: founded by an ex-aide of your seemingly preferred repeated presidential candidate, ron paul, it started just a few years ago...not the many years once tossed about; it came about at first as a direct, right wing attack against the then (d) leading presidential candidate, hillary clinton: your founder made some rather crude, disparaging remarks about her, remember ?
but once it became clear that obama would be the nominee, the game was on.

your leadership has made repeated comments about how all these unconstitutional acts were, if not ok, at least not much to worry about....as long as a (r), or, at least, one of their boys...a fellow texan, i guess...was in the white house, but once he was gone, they suddenly decided that all these unconstitutional activities warranted their attention.

and a call to arms

much, if not exactly like, the tea party, to which they are more than closely related, they only found all these govt actions worthy of their ire only when the (d) won the W.H.: most especially, it seems, because it was obama...it seems that the oh-so constitutional ( 'all men are created equal...': remember that ?) oath keepers are also, by and large..ta-da...'birthers' !

shocked, right ?

they are currently not gaining the support of everyday enlisted men and retirees as much as they are appealing to well trained US forces, both Ex and current, and are preparing them for the upcoming battle against our own military by holding exercises and encouraging them to stockpile weapons, right here...because, as we all know, the obama administration is just days or weeks away from engineering a suspension of all our rights...and the oathkeepers are here to protect us !!

aren't we lucky ?!?

this group is no patriotic outfit...it's nothing more than just another right wing militia group whose sole purpose is, not to defend america and its freedoms...but undermine it

the title of this page is 'we're the govt, we're here to help you'...and there have been many bits of news, worthy of our attention, that have been brought up as such, and i appreciate that...but there is an agenda going on here and it is not one where we all get together and fix these problems...it is one to undermine the credibility of our govt at every level...to make them the enemy of us...

other than corbin, who's clearly an avid believer of this sort of thing...the question must become, do YOU really believe that our govt is now the sworn enemy of all the people and freedom

the oathkeepers do...and they are waiting

[CorbinKale]

You got one part right, that the founder of Oath Keepers once worked on Ron Paul's campaign. The rest of it was complete bunk. Stewart got the idea for Oath Keepers because of Bush's unconstitutional acts, not because of Obama. We are the police, military and first responders, already sworn to support and defend the Constitution, NOT a militia.

If you did independent research on oathkeepers, you researched the wrong group. Oath Keepers has been so successful in awakening public servants to their responsibility to educate themselves on the Constitution, that many detractors have sprung up to smear Oath Keepers. The domestic enemies of the Constitution, mentioned in the Constitutional Oath, are terrified of an educated, responsible police force and military, who will not blindly follow unlawful orders, but measure those orders against the law. A thinking military and police force renders any potential tyrant, powerless. A President may issue an executive order to confiscate firearms, but he will not come to your house, himself. He will send the police or military to do his bidding. When the police and military refuse to obey such an unlawful order, the criminal act never occurs. The added benefit is that, not knowing whether his unlawful orders will be obeyed, the President is much less likely to issue those illegal orders in the first place.

Ask yourself one question. Do you want a military that will blindly obey the orders of the next Republican President? Neither do we. We want a non-partisan military that will obey the Constitution, they are sworn to support and defend. One can't support and defend the Constitution, unless one reads and understands the Constitution. That is the purpose of Oath Keepers. To encourage that education. Honor the Constitutional Oath, obey the law and refuse unlawful orders. It's that simple. Don't get mislead by progressive smear organizations.

[guido tkp]

actually..i did mention that rhodes started thinking about all this back in bushs days...just as i pointed out that he, while perturbed, did not feel it any threat, since GB was seen as 'one of us'...

then i pointed out that he only launched into a frenzy, and became more than mysoginistically derogatory, when it seemed that hillary clinton might get the (d) nod...
and went over the deep end when obama did...
but, i guess all that far right, anti-(d) thinking, definately not nonpartisan thinking, doesn't realy matter much when it comes to defending the 'of the people, by the people, for the people' constitution, right ?

rhodes' laws (?)..seem to be an actual a good starting point for an interesting, thought-provoking theory on how to act, as an american...too bad, in almost the entirety, oathkeepers has devolved into nothing more than yet another, far right wing militia: both expecting and, to some extent, helping to create an environment, where acts that any sane person would know are traitorous might seem contemplatable...
and if your organization was as innocent as you certainly seem to believe...why are too many of your brethern not so eager to share all this philosophy with all thier brothers and sisters in uniform...
why are so many eager to stockpliling weapons...
why are they ready to shoot their fellow americans....

because rhodes, and they (or you) have decided that, suddenly, at that time, the govt has become the enemy ?

why does so much of rhodes speeches seem so very far from any form of well thought, nonpartisan theorizing ?

why does he continually court those from the very far right...does the very far right have the only viable p.o.v. on the constitution ?

if his intention is to create an educated, responsible, non-partisan way of thinking..why does he continually wait until one of the members gets in real, undeniable trouble with the law before he kicks them out..instead of doing so right when they begin dwon a path that clearly makes his organization seem like nothing more than yet another right wing militia gone viral ?

why does he repeatedly use, and encourage the use of, rhetoric and tactics that do not represent nonpartisan honesty, truth or justice...tactics meant solely to attract only those disenfranchised individuals just looking for a safe place to feel free to hate fellow americans just becaue they do not belive in that sort of far right philosophy ?

why is it only far right wing extremists that he courts ?

why are the oathkeepers actively seeking well trained individuals, both in and out of the police and military, who are willing, if not eager to simply disobey orders, based solely on rhodes interpretation of the constitution...or, more importantly, those who are willing and/or eager to take up arms against our own troops and our own govt ?

isn't it possible that, either because most of the rest, and that is the majority or those in uniform, are people smart enough to know that looking at or interpreting the constitution from only one socio-politcal perspective is not, in fact, a truly american way of thinking...that that sort of philosophozing is, in fact, quite the opposite...that that sort of limited interpration would not mean freedom for all ?

why did rhodes invite, and let speak at one of his meetings, an individual who's decided that all liberals who favor abortion rights are really attempting nothing less than the genocide, thru abortion, of the christain people ?

why are so many who profess allegiance to the oathkeepers so eager to share the idea of, and willingness to act on, the idea that soon, oathkeepers my have to act on these tenets in a deadly manner ?

and why is that consentual belief not an act of constitutional treason?
because you and rhodes have decided what is right and wrong ?

i'd believe in the original intentions in a second if you, as a group, weren't so eager to always look on the darkside without ever noticing how often..and that is more often than not, actually, get it right ?
if you, as a group, actually did show, at every measure, a nonpartisan outlook...until then...keep the peace

[CorbinKale]

I've explained that Oath Keepers is not a militia. The only action we encourage is inaction, when given illegal commands. If we were what you claim, we would be a proscribed group by DoD. We seek to educate the volunteer patriots, serving in uniform, who are willing to honor the Oath they swore to the Constitution. Our peaceful, strictly legal message terrifies the progressives, so they are determined to smear us. Read the Constitution, honor your Oath and refuse to obey orders to commit criminal acts. For some reason, that scares the hell out of some people. Who would want a military and police force that would commit criminal acts on command?

[guido tkp]

i realize that...you've explained it..if it 100% true, i'd agree with it, however...

now try explaining it, clearly and definably, to all, every single one, of your members...hold them 100% accountable to it...

somehow, so far, alot are not getting that message from your leadership...or you are just blatantly ignoring what alot of the followers are doing and saying...that is not my fault...you either have a blind ignorance to the truth, or are simply unwilling to accept the truth

two: you must've missed the whole part about you claiming the org. is nonpartisan, yet all you do is attack that mythical dragon, 'the progressives"...who, seemingly, in your world, fear you like none other

and yet what many fear, and are finding to be true with just casual glances, is the absolute fact that your group is not only attracting only the far right wing, but actively courting it...and, that in that courting, it is bringing alot of 'militia' types, of which your org. has been beyond slow to deal with, especially if you're as peaceful as you claim...

you simply are not a peaceful organization if you are teaching that the govt is about to try a coup against its own people, when it clearly is not...advocate storing guns for that upcoming siege, which is not in any manner, wa

[guido tkp]

CRAP...HIT THE WRONG BUTTON !!

[guido tkp]

crap-crap...hit it twice, i think ??!?!

anyway...i do not disagree with the thought that, under certain circumstances., one should not only not follow an order that is unconstitutional: god only knows why , lets say, lt. william calley, all those years ago, or those buffoons in uniform at abu ghraib had had the ethics to just say no, our reputation around the world (and, for that matter, with many of our citizens) as a leader for truth, justice and freedom would be alot better...even if it might seem unconstitutional, there should be some realistic mechanisms, including refusal to follow the very same...

but, all one has to do is read in depth, and that is not the message that is being taught: it may be the banner headline you like to wave...but, once you get past that...there is alot more going on than you seem to be willing to admit

hope all this made some form of sense

[CorbinKale]

crap-crap...hit it twice, i think ??!?!

anyway...i do not disagree with the thought that, under certain circumstances., one should not only not follow an order that is unconstitutional: god only knows why , lets say, lt. william calley, all those years ago, or those buffoons in uniform at abu ghraib had had the ethics to just say no, our reputation around the world (and, for that matter, with many of our citizens) as a leader for truth, justice and freedom would be alot better...even if it might seem unconstitutional, there should be some realistic mechanisms, including refusal to follow the very same...

but, all one has to do is read in depth, and that is not the message that is being taught: it may be the banner headline you like to wave...but, once you get past that...there is alot more going on than you seem to be willing to admit

hope all this made some form of sense

It's obvious that you heard some bad info from a smear organization, and you believed it. I offered my view of the organization from the inside, yet you refuse to believe it. Some people have tried to co-opt the Oath Keepers to further an agenda, but they are identified quickly, and booted. Your accusations have been very vague. Do you have some specific incident in mind? If so, I might be able to address it.

[JohnDalglish]

It's obvious that you heard some bad info from a smear organization, and you believed it. I offered my view of the organization from the inside, yet you refuse to believe it. Some people have tried to co-opt the Oath Keepers to further an agenda, but they are identified quickly, and booted. Your accusations have been very vague. Do you have some specific incident in mind? If so, I might be able to address it.

Hi,

'Oath Keepers', eh?

Sounds like a secret society to me (said the hereditary Templar who knows a thing or two about 'Oaths').



Long days and pleasant nights

[CorbinKale]

Hi,

'Oath Keepers', eh?

Sounds like a secret society to me (said the hereditary Templar who knows a thing or two about 'Oaths').

Long days and pleasant nights

Since the Oath in question is the Constitutional Oath, taken by all public servants, including President Obama, it is hardly a secret. We encourage people to read the Constitution and honor that Oath.

[CorbinKale]

I think it is pretty clear what Operation Fast and Furious was intended for. Here is my math:

Back in 2008, there was massive media hype that 90% of all Mexican drug-related gun crimes were committed with firearms sold to illegal buyers from US gun stores. This lie was being spread in the hope of justifying more gun control laws. Once that claim was proved to be false the media outlets, embarrassed at having been duped by the anti-gun zealots, dropped both the story and the calls for gun control.

PLUS

http://nation.foxnews.com/guns/2011/05/25/obama-were-working-gun-control-under-radar

On March 30, the 30th anniversary of the assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan, Jim Brady, who sustained a debilitating head wound in the attack, and his wife, Sarah, came to Capitol Hill to push for a ban on the controversial "large magazines." Brady, for whom the law requiring background checks on handgun purchasers is named, then met with White House press secretary Jay Carney. During the meeting, President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, "to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda," she said.

"I just want you to know that we are working on it," Brady recalled the president telling them. "We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar."

So we see that President Obama is still working towards gun control, as he promised during the campaign, but is doing it behind the scenes. The video below shows his "under the radar" plot to justify more gun control, laid bare.

PLUS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8976X9Yb2B0

This is the the full segment, as originally aired. You can still find this segment on the CNN website, but most of it has been edited out. Go watch it and see a fine example of revisionist history.

PLUS

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-punch-drunk-eric-holder-swings-back-at-critics-hits-self/?singlepage=true

EQUALS

An ambitious plan to legitimize the theory of illegal guns being smuggled to the cartels. Turns out it was our own government, using our tax dollars to purchase and smuggle those guns in many instances. Create the crisis, then institute new gun laws to prevent the crisis. The question that everyone is now asking, "What will the new laws accomplish if it is the government that is breaking their own laws?

Since everything else is collapsing in an epic failure of mismanagement, the Obama administration is falling back on the only good excuse that might be a plausible explanation. It's Bush's fault. I believe this is Holder's signal that he knows the game is almost over. I doubt he'll last until Christmas. Subpoenas are being issed now.

Holder might not go to prison for murder and various international crimes, but as Martha Stewart learned, it isn't the crime itself that gets you, it's lying about it after the fact.

[guido tkp]

"..ambitious plan.."?

more like paranoid deluded fantasy...

guess obama planted the seed for this way back when ronnie was shot: he and holder left brady alive just so that he could quietly lay the ground work, lo these many years, so that their insidious (nonexistent) plan to take over the world and install that new world order of no guns could finally happen...

and chickens might fly out my ass

[CorbinKale]

"..ambitious plan.."?

more like paranoid deluded fantasy...

guess obama planted the seed for this way back when ronnie was shot: he and holder left brady alive just so that he could quietly lay the ground work, lo these many years, so that their insidious (nonexistent) plan to take over the world and install that new world order of no guns could finally happen...

and chickens might fly out my ass

Go back and read the article, again. Obama's comments to Sarah Brady that he was pursuing his gun control agenda "under the radar" occurred in March of THIS year.

[omm poppa mow mow]

• I hope the people who are challenging Obamacare in the Supreme Court point out that the equal application of the laws, mandated by the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, is violated when the president can arbitrarily grant hundreds of waivers to the Obamacare law to his political favorites, while everyone else has to follow its costly provisions.

~Thomas Sowell

[guido tkp]

"costly provision"

right...and health care never cost anyone anything before the act was debated, compromised over and voted on...

or, if it had....then no ones health care costs ever went up before, not for any reason...ever: always stagnant...always low

all current and future health care costs and/or all health care increases are all because of obama: the world sure was a much cheaper place back in those days

in fact..prices for everything never went up before obama...and every budget ever put forth by every (r) was clean and balanced !!

despite what the evil lefties would try to have us all believe...bush actually had all of both wars completely paid for, all of new orleans completely renovated and 2 chickens in every pot !

no one was ever hungry and everyone had a good job...and there was no wife-beating, child rape, animal torture or donkey prostitution ! !

and everybody went to church every sunday and no one ever cheated on their spouses or their taxes !!

then came obama!

and dire woe is all we have left

[CorbinKale]

then came obama!

and dire woe is all we have left

All is not lost. I agree with you, that things are bad and getting worse, but this has to be the longest telegraphed punch in the history national disasters. We have had decades to prepare and plenty of recent alarms, warning that the blow is about to land.

I don't guess I'll ever be 'ready', but I'm certainly more prepared than I was 10 years ago.

[tower-obsession]

I'm not sure if this fits in this thread. If not, please feel free to place it where it does fit.

On November 9th (in 15 days), the feds will be shutting down television and radio broadcasts. I'm not sure about internet or cell phones, but some people have stated that those will be shut down too. They are doing this as a "test" of the EAS (Emergency Alert System).

There are lots of people who think this is some sort of conspiracy for Obama to take complete power over the U.S. I don't know about that. I think he already has more power than he should, but how would he benefit from doing this now? Any why would Congress allow this? I have my doubts about this being a conspiracy.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/did-you-know-feds-will-temporarily-cut-off-all-tv-and-radio-broadcasts-on-nov-9/

http://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/services/eas/

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/emergency-alert-system-nationwide-test
(http://www.theblaze.com/stories/did-you-know-feds-will-temporarily-cut-off-all-tv-and-radio-broadcasts-on-nov-9/)

Personally, I think they just want to know whether it works or not, since a national test has never been conducted. But I could be wrong.

:umm::dunno:

What do you all think?

[Moderator]

I checked this out at snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/eas.asp).

[Spideyman]

I checked this out at snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/eas.asp).

My last cable bill had a notice attached stating "at 2PM EST on Wed, Nov 9, 2011 that programming will be interrupted for up to 3 minutes." and gave me WWW.FCC.GOV for more info.

[fljoe0]

There are lots of people who think this is some sort of conspiracy for Obama to take complete power over the U.S. I don't know about that.

President Obama doesn't even have power over his own party, how's he going to pull off world power? :biggrin2: