A very sad affair...

[staropeace]

Parents chose holistic medicine instead of conventional and the child died. They are charged. What are your thoughts on this?

I knew a man who had very bad cancer...it was terminal. He listened to his family, who owned a health food store, and decided to forego convential medicine by taking mega vitamins and drinking tons of carrot juice. I was getting chemo at the time and not working ...so between treatments, I would sit with him while his wife was at the store working. His doctor was outraged because he thought this gentleman should have been encouraged to try the conventional medicine first...his cancer could have been cured at that point. His son was angry with his mom and sis for encouraging him to just rely on health doses of vits,etc. He died and that was that.

This is different because the child cannot speak on his own behalf. I think the parents were very wrong. I think the authorities should have taken this decision away from the parents long before the point of no return. Any opinions on this?

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/02/13/raymond-mounties-charge-parents-in-death-of-19-month-old

[Todash]

I don't think there's enough detail in the story to judge one way or the other. Some sicknesses don't seem like a big deal at first (especially if you are not a trained health professional). I'm not saying they weren't negligent; I'm just saying I don't know.

[Shasta]

I think people should be able to make their own choices, and choices for their children, regarding health care, even if it's the wrong choice.

[staropeace]

I respectfully disagree with that Sasha. I feel that children should be given the chance to have access to anything which will ensure that they have health and happiness. Parents are the folks who are responsible for your birth. A child is a seperate being that is entitled to every benefic that will improve his or her environment. If the parents cannot or will not do that, then somebody has to step in and speak up for the child's right. It is no different than stepping in and taking a child who is physically and mentally abused.

[Sepia and Dust]

I don't think there's enough detail in the story to judge one way or the other. Some sicknesses don't seem like a big deal at first (especially if you are not a trained health professional). I'm not saying they weren't negligent; I'm just saying I don't know.

Agreed. What was the boy sick with? If it was "flu-like symptoms", then the parents likely thought it was just another childhood illness. If it was "leukemia", then they should be charged. Also, what does the article mean by "holistic"... that's pretty broad.

[GNTLGNT]

I think people should be able to make their own choices, and choices for their children, regarding health care, even if it's the wrong choice.

...gotta disagree with you there honey...with that direction, the child will inevitably be a victim of a puddin'-headed choice...it's my nursing training and creed kicking in..."Do no harm".....

[Shasta]

I respectfully disagree with that Sasha. I feel that children should be given the chance to have access to anything which will ensure that they have health and happiness. Parents are the folks who are responsible for your birth. A child is a seperate being that is entitled to every benefic that will improve his or her environment. If the parents cannot or will not do that, then somebody has to step in and speak up for the child's right. It is no different than stepping in and taking a child who is physically and mentally abused.

I disagree. Choosing holistic care, which is practiced in many, many countries, is not the same as abuse. In any way. It's a very valid medical practice.

I mean, I don't agree with not vaccinating kids either because I think it's dangerous but parents have that choice. Why shouldn't they be able to choose how their child is treated medically in other ways?

[Shasta]

...gotta disagree with you there honey...with that direction, the child will inevitably be a victim of a puddin'-headed choice...it's my nursing training and creed kicking in..."Do no harm".....

They weren't doing harm. They were treating their child holistically. This is their belief and they have a right to it. They were trying to treat the situation in the way they thought best. It just didn't work. They weren't actively hurting the child or ignoring the problem.

[staropeace]

Their child died. The authorities would probably disagree with you that they weren't ignoring the problem. I cannot speak for the medical profession, I am sure Ally would be able to her two cents about how it is done in emerg...what proedures are taken, etc, but I think the medical staff are most likely trained to tell by the child's appearance how long he was sick by the condition he is in...how dehydrated, what he blood gases are like...etc. There are policies in place.

I worked for Children's services and was a family support supervisor for family service with Canniff and Ass. here in the city before I started with the Homeless shelters. I have had to visit homes and sometimes covertly take a good long look at the child clients... there are certain "tells" in bahavior that gives you some idea of the family dynamics. The medical profession probably has their own.

These parents still wanted the holistic way of medicine even when their child was on life-support. I have had to face the death of a child in my own life. We all did everything possible to make her well. Even if I believed in Holistic medicine, I would be at Emerge in a New York minute.

If a parent cannot make good decisions for a child then that child needs a child advocate to protect his rights....it is only fair to the child. It is his little life at stake.

[staropeace]

Good gawd my spelling. I haven't slept for two bloody night.

[Shasta]

If a parent cannot make good decisions for a child then that child needs a child advocate to protect his rights....it is only fair to the child. It is his little life at stake.

That's exactly my point. Who are you to decide what a good decision is? What's fair?

I live in a country where people have a right to choose and I support that.

Again, I don't think they made the right decision. At all. I would never hesitate to take my kid to a doctor. Heck, I don't even hesitate to take my cat to the doctor.

But they do have a choice. Some people don't want chemo when they have cancer. That's their choice. Some people don't want a pacemaker. Their choice.

Heck, some people make their kids to beauty pageants or sports when they don't want to. I personally think this is a form of abuse. But again, their choice.

They did what they thought was right for their child and they tried to help him. It didn't work and we think it was the wrong decision but I feel it was certainly their decision to make.

And that's all I'm going to say on the matter because I keep repeating myself.

[Lily Sawyer]

I agree with you, Staro, about there being a negligence factor involved in this sad story. Some people should never be allowed to become parents. But I can't tell from the story what else was involved: was there a point-of-no-return that the parents considered regarding the illness? I know someone who was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and who said no thanks to chemo. He knew his chances of survival weren't good to begin with. At that point he had to consider whether the chemo was going to improve the quality of his life or if he'd be better off without it, since it usually makes a person feel so wretched for so long.

I'm for pharmaceutical cocktails when it's Stage 4/End Stage and to hell with the chemo or radiation. Make the end less painful and be as comfortable as you can be.

[staropeace]

Who am I to decide what a good decision is? Well, at the time I worked in this field, I was the one, along with other workers, whose job it was to go into homes or have office visits with the clients...in order to make sure that the children were well treated and had the essentials of life. I was the one who would be called into work on days off because maybe two or three babies were left unattended in their homes, while their parents were out doing crack or drinking. I was the one who had to be support for the children under court supervisions handed down by a judge.

I was at the other end of the scale too. I was a foster child myself. I was finally adopted and I am very lucky. My brother and sister were abandoned in New York. My other brother was abused by the Catholic brothers. Child welfare and loving foster parents saved me...and I wanted to pay it forward.

I have seen things done to children that I wouldnt go into online here. Some nights it was hard to sleep. Burn out is a reality with this kind of stuff.

Bottom line, Shasta, we are all responsible for the welfare of children in our society. They are trusting little souls who depend on us.

All I am going to say on this subject.

[doowopgirl]

I have to go on the side of parental puddin headedness. While parents are allowed to treat their children as they see fit, when the parents are not really seeing the seriousness of the problem, that IMO is when authorities have to step in.

[Shasta]

I just seem to be able to separate holistic health treatment and neglect.

Treating something holistically and leaving a kid unattanded at home are not the same thing, no matter what field you work in.

[staropeace]

Treating them holistically did not work...the child was very ill and getting much worse. I do not know if you are a mother or not but for me, when I became a mother, I would stop at nothing to protect and save my child...it is inate. The law happens to agree with this . Nobody wants to hurt a mother and father by taking their child...not the law and not the social agencies. There was cause for concern in this case. We cannot have it both ways. If a child is killed in a home or a foster home, there is a hue and cry about the law and child welfare not doing enough. When they do step in, then they are heartless monsters. It is better to ere on the side of caution and investigate. For the sake of the child. These parents may be found innocent...who knows? The law,however, has every right and a duty to find out what happened.

[~Ally~]

Here's another link I've found relating to the story, it includes a video interview with the Grandfather of the little boy.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/Police+charge+parents+death+Raymond+toddler/7962311/story.html (http://www.stephenking.com/forums/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calgaryherald. com%2Fentertainment%2FPolice%2Bcharge%2Bparents%2B death%2BRaymond%2Btoddler%2F7962311%2Fstory.html)

From what I'm reading there seems to be some discrepancies regarding the time frame for the kid's illness, but the professionals--medical and legal--seem adamant his illness lasted through February to March 13th. They must have collated some evidence to corroborate this because no legal case would rely on hearsay.

If he did die from meningitis and the parents deliberately withheld medical treatment in favour of holistic therapies then I agree they do need charging. Parents can't always be relied upon to make the right choice for their child, and if their decisions could result in causing harm then a legal advocate should be appointed to ensure the child is protected. Deliberately withholding potentially lifesaving treatment can only cause harm and is abuse. Unfortunately this child was too young to ask for help, or consent to their own treatment. I'm not sure if minors can do that in the USA but over here they can so long as they can demonstrate Gillick_competence. Anyhoo, I could go off on a tangent here so back on track!

Shasta I respect your opinions about holistic therapies but if a child's life is at risk then I won't ever agree a parent should be allowed to choose this option over medical interventions that are proven to work. If an adult wants to choose that option then that's fine, because they are making an informed choice regarding their own life, but being a parent should not automatically give them the right to force these therapies on their child. Luckily there are systems in place to protect children and vulnerable people so hopefully tragic outcomes like this one should rarely happen.

[Damaris]

I agree with Todash that there just isn't enough information to make an informed opinion about this family. They say the boy was only sickly for a few days and had seemed better before taking a sudden turn for the worse. The RCMP says the boy had been ill for weeks. The family also says they use traditional medicine and health care when needed and that their medical records will show that. Add to that how children with meningitis "may only be irritable and look unwell" and things really get sticky. So who knows.

As for parents and legal guardians being able to choose methods of treatment for their children ... geez, that's even stickier. Part of me thinks that, since they are the parents/guardians, they have the right to choose. Part of me also thinks sometimes they are negligent or absolutely deluded and the children need protection. But in general I think until the beliefs and choices of a parent/guardian can be shown as knowingly life-threatening (like a Jehovah's Witness refusing a blood transfusion for their child when they know it's a matter of life and death), then they should be able to make the call.