The End - I LOVED IT!!! ***SPOILERS***

[thymeoperator]

Thought I'd start a fresh new thread just for showing the love :) Also wanted to chat about the implications of the story.

i loved, first of all, the way he wrote it as if you weren't going to get to see what was at the top of the tower - when it showed susannah and co in an 'epilogue' and then followed it with sk writing as himself, i thought, 'what!? all that and we don't even see the ending???' and when i turned the page and saw him saying basically, 'oh right, you need the ending? very well then, here it is,' i thought that was hilarious. i was really worried for a minute there!

when he actually opened the door and looked out, i read that paragraph several times to be sure i was understanding it properly, and it was one of those rare moments when my mouth literally dropped open and all i could say was variations on 'no way' over and over, and i just started laughing at how clever and horrible it was. i suddenly knew what the last line would be, and i loved that.

i love the implications of it. it seemed like he's had his priorities all out of focus, he's been an addict just like eddie and others in the story, and he's sacrificed people for the sake of this thing - and in the end he realises it was for nothing. and as a reader, you're there thinking 'oh i hope he finds what he's looking for one day, that it'll be different one day' but perhaps the better thing to wish is that he'll abandon the quest one day and realise there are better things to focus his life and energy on.

i love when the tower tells him of course it's filled with death if all he chose to fill his life with was death. for me, it hinges on jake in the first book - if he could just choose to save jake instead of letting him fall for the sake of following walter and his tower, he could escape the loop and be free.

i also thought it echoed a definition of insanity i once learned in psychology: repeating the same action endlessly, thinking each time that maybe it will produce a different outcome. how often do we all do that??

i also thought it suggested that all those times when characters said they somehow just knew what they had to do, that they were going to die, etc. it wasn't psychic premonitions or anything like that, but more that they were remembering all the other times they'd done it and were just repeating their same old looping roles. maybe if one of them could do something differently, that too would help break the circle? in that sense, it reminded me of a ghost story, the kind where people who have died together traumatically just repeat the same sequence again and again and the only way out of purgatory would be for one of them to realise it and snap out of it.

[OhhDiscordia]

In a way, I would have been content with not knowing what he found. But that is because I am one of those readers who was content with the journey that led them to his goal. As I started reading this story I was so interested in finding out what he was going to finally find, seeing as he had been on this quest for so long, but as it progressed I found myself less and less interested, and that's what I find is the true magic of it. I've never once had that happen in a book, but I was so in love with the characters and their adventures that at times I wasn't thinking in terms of it being all to reach his tower. For a minute there I almost didn't read the Coda, but of course you have to.

Am I right in thinking that the Horn was the true sigul meant to be brought to the tower, not the guns of his father? That bringing the guns meant he chose death when, bringing the horn would have meant otherwise? Seems pretty obvious but these things can be tricky, as is the whole story.

Curiously, if we were to think futher to his reborn quest, with the horn will he need to draw three companions again? If so, how would it fit in that susannah, eddie, and jake be drawn if they are all together or does EVERYTHING start over in the universe? Seeing as it is Roland trapped in his own sort of hell, would that be the case or would he draw new companions.

Interesting to think what the Crimson King set to gain by controlling the dark tower, if that's what happened to Roland. Or is it that Roland would/will gain something in the end if he quests for it the right way.

Just a few questions I have posed, I just finished the series for the first time. Absolutely amazing. I would've never picked up King until this was recommended to me and I think I'll be exploring his tie-in work a lot in the near future.

[All Hail The Crimson King]

Interesting to think what the Crimson King set to gain by controlling the dark tower, if that's what happened to Roland. Or is it that Roland would/will gain something in the end if he quests for it the right way.


I don't think the CK wanted to control it, but to destroy it and let the Great Ones from the Prim back in and to be the ruler of the Prim.

[OhhDiscordia]

True, I kinda forgot that, but, interesting to think what somebody of the White would gain were they to rule the dark tower. I'm still kinda trying to figure it all out. Kinda a mindf**k "sorry if that gets me in trouble" if you ask me. I have no other means of describing it accurately lol. Obviously the dark tower's real, but is it gan? Roland speaks of having the feeling he just walked into gan's stomach? I think thats what it said.

[All Hail The Crimson King]

He felt that the Dark Tower was the living flesh of Gan, I believe, I don't have the book in front of me at the moment. I think the idea is that Gan is the multiverse itself, and the Dark Tower is the physical, living center of all the worlds at the same time is also multiverse. Chew on that! LOL
When you get a chance take a look at the end stories of the comic series' they give a lot of eye-opening background to the mythology of the saga.

[thymeoperator]

Am I right in thinking that the Horn was the true sigul meant to be brought to the tower, not the guns of his father? That bringing the guns meant he chose death when, bringing the horn would have meant otherwise? Seems pretty obvious but these things can be tricky, as is the whole story.

Curiously, if we were to think futher to his reborn quest, with the horn will he need to draw three companions again? If so, how would it fit in that susannah, eddie, and jake be drawn if they are all together or does EVERYTHING start over in the universe? Seeing as it is Roland trapped in his own sort of hell, would that be the case or would he draw new companions.

this was my first reading of it too - i like that idea, about which path he should have chosen. as for what starts over, that is tricky indeed! i don't know how it would work but i reckon eddie, susannah and jake are caught in the loop with him - truly ka-tet i guess? - and perhaps some others are too, but not all, because i reckon patrick danville must be outside of it, as they found his paintings in sayre's lair or whatever it was, from years into the future, so how is that possible if his world gets re-set just hours or so after he sees roland? he would need to have gone off on his own adventures and time-travelled, etc. in order to get those paintings done and hung up in a world where roland hadn't yet gone to the tower.

another thing i loved was that i'm guessing the CK was the devil, or something like it? and because of the nature of the paint with an eraser they can't get rid of his eyes, so even though they've basically defeated him, he's still lurking there and communicating telepathically, whispering his evil temptations and watching. thought that was a brilliant symbol. i also wondered if perhaps there's something babel-esque about the tower? like everyone trying to conquer it and find God, if he's there, gets their comeuppance, either the way the CK did, or the way Roland did.

it did say the tower was the body of gan, but i wondered if that was like...God is in all things / contains all things, or something like that?

[OhhDiscordia]

Crimson King, i've asked for the comics for christmas actually, I can't wait to read them. I had a chance to buy a few for like $6 but I hadn't finished the original series and so I had to resist. It' a fascinating conclusion and in the end I think there's so much symbolism and deeper meanings to what he's created. Just a wonderful concept that I find myself mulling over at night before I go to sleep. Obsession much? lol

So was the CK mortal? Or is he the devil. I was thrown off my the fact that he was using sneetches of all things to battle Roland, and assumed maybe he was some wizard, possibly Maerlyn himself? I don't think that it ever concluded that Walter was indeed maerlyn, can't remember, but if he isn't it would be logical if the CK was. Hence his fear of Roland, of the line of Eld. I know he had magic, he did make Patrick fall asleep in the end. Could be way off, usually am.

[DancingCorpse]

I enjoyed reading your questions and train of thought, makes me think about it a lot more too! So many questions and possibilities!

[All Hail The Crimson King]

So was the CK mortal? Or is he the devil. I was thrown off my the fact that he was using sneetches of all things to battle Roland, and assumed maybe he was some wizard, possibly Maerlyn himself? I don't think that it ever concluded that Walter was indeed maerlyn, can't remember, but if he isn't it would be logical if the CK was. Hence his fear of Roland, of the line of Eld. I know he had magic, he did make Patrick fall asleep in the end. Could be way off, usually am.

The CK is immortal as far as can be told, but was weakened by several events to the point where he was trapped on the balcony. Not sure if sneetches were his only weapon, it's never clear. You should read Insomnia and Black House for further enlightenment on how the CK ended up the way he did.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

The CK is immortal as far as can be told, but was weakened by several events to the point where he was trapped on the balcony. Not sure if sneetches were his only weapon, it's never clear. You should read Insomnia and Black House for further enlightenment on how the CK ended up the way he did.

I think he had a lot more weapons as we could read somewhere else (remember that thing about poison) but I figured he was so insane he didn't think in a rational way anymore.
Glad to see you here by the way :)

[moonhoney2]

Am I right in thinking that the Horn was the true sigul meant to be brought to the tower, not the guns of his father? That bringing the guns meant he chose death when, bringing the horn would have meant otherwise? Seems pretty obvious but these things can be tricky, as is the whole story.


This is where my line of thinking is. Typically, the most obvious thing is NOT the answer. instead some obscure thing spoken about for only a moment or two is the key. LOL

I'm about halfway thru Wolves...my 3rd time thru the series. not quite to the conclusion of the horn story. But I remember my thoughts the last time I read the series, was that his mistake was leaving the horn. That the horn was the key to it all. (the first time I thought it was about him dropping Jake, but that would have been too easy and if he hadn't dropped jake, then no palavar with walter, no tarot cards, no doors to bring in eddie and susannah, etc. his journey would have ended there. And he wasn't just going on a field trip. the tower was DYING and needed to be saved)

My theory originally was that there were also other mistakes that he made and it was kinda like groundhog day. he had to keep doing it until it was done right.

But now I wonder. If the horn was the key turning point, then that's over. he can't go back to it. He keeps returning to crossing the dessert after walter. So maybe this is his hell. To repeat this journey over and over for all of eternity. Events may change during each journey. But in the end, he, at least, always gets to the tower...only to start over again. And again. And again. Forever.

Why return to this journey rather than something extremely painful like susan dying or his friends dying? Because this is harder. He gets to relive all his wrongs over and over thru his stories he tells. And the journey is very hard. nad it could be more playful for whoever set this upon him. It's not the same thing happening over and over because there could be some changes. Different choices/decisions that Roland makes that changes the story some, KWIM?

[moonhoney2]

I just thought of something...

Could it be possible that had he chosen to go thru one of the doors, he could have fixed his mistakes? Like the door for Jericho...he could have started his journey over there and grabbed the horn this time. Or Susan's door. He could have gone thru that door and fixed some of the mistakes he made there. Maybe if he fixed enough mistakes/picked the right door/mistake his purgatory would end?

But instead, he impatiently goes to the top because he just HAS to see. And therefore is sent back to the desert to start over.

[Mia Deschain]

I just thought of something...

Could it be possible that had he chosen to go thru one of the doors, he could have fixed his mistakes? Like the door for Jericho...he could have started his journey over there and grabbed the horn this time. Or Susan's door. He could have gone thru that door and fixed some of the mistakes he made there. Maybe if he fixed enough mistakes/picked the right door/mistake his purgatory would end?

But instead, he impatiently goes to the top because he just HAS to see. And therefore is sent back to the desert to start over.

Wow. entering one of the other tower doors. Never thought of that... I wonder what would happen for him.