President Obama and racism

[devious1]

i thought i'd start a thread on this since it's been all over the media lately... the argument that those who oppose Obama are doing so out of racial prejudice. recently former President Jimmy Carter made the comment that most of Obama's detractors are disparaging him based on his race. President Obama himself said he does not believe this, and in fact quipped just last night on Letterman that "it's important to realize, i was actually black before the election..." but let's take a serious look at this.

i don't believe that all negativity and animosity toward Obama is race based. i believe there is a certain sector of Americans who do openly judge him based on his race, but i also believe that sector is fairly small. i think a lot of it comes down to the usual republican vs. democrat stuff, only ramped up to the nth degree. but let's take the now infamous "you lie!" quip from Joe Wilson and look at it. i don't believe Joe Wilson is racist (however i really don't know much about him, other than it was his wife that the Bush Administration outed as a spy a few years back... remember that? good times... ) but i have to ask this: what is it about Obama that made Joe Wilson (and others) feel that he deserves less respect than any other President? i've never heard a politician shout out something like that during a President's speech in the past, and there have been some hated Presidents in American history... hell, half of the Republican party was against George Bush, the most hated President ever based on polls, and no one heckled him. he was the President and regardless of the job he was doing, he deserved respect. but apparently they don't feel Obama is worthy of the same respect shown to every President before him. is it just coincidence that the first black President is shown less respect than any of the previous white Presidents? or is there some merit to the claims of prejudice?

[Jaedpact]

I think it is important to note that perhaps there remains a Not-so-open sector that descriminates against Obama based on race. I cannot think of a solid reaon otherwise. He isn't the first President to be accused of attempting to guide the US towards Socialism. he isn't the first to make questionable actions regarding bailouts or other financially motivated and controversial decisions.

I feel that most of the banter or coments that take place out in the open are tinged with some sort of hatred. I don't think this is new either. It seems to me that though the world has made striking changes in regards to the vote to allow a black president, we still have not seen the eradication of racism. We may be seeing the flotsam and jetsam of the waves of change.

[mbrown7349]

Well said!! I completely agree, esp about Joe Wilson, what an ass!

[rjt65]

Devious:

Good thread and i would agree- lets not use the race card here for everyone, unfortunately some will go to that method to try to shut up those who dont agree.

Also I was not a happy Bush supporter, but IMO he go the least respect of any president in his second term and was constantly heckled and bad mouthed by all Democrat political figures and others. I am not talking about disagreeing passionatley, i think some of the comments were over the edge. This was common place on the US news, maybe not on Canadian or other news.

I think Obama is getting a grace period by the public. Maybe rightfully so. He is not getting the abusive rhetoric at the level of Bush 2nd term, yet and I hope he never does. I think this makes matters worse , again learn to disagree with respect, not stupidity and theatrics.

Nothing is ever all good or bad and with the technology cell phones, video audio recording, inet, the politicians sports figures and other public figueres are being torn down more than in the past. Culture has changed..no one would ever question authority figures...in the past.

But with what we know now they will and are being questioned, so with that some of what you call disrespect or getting treated more as a normal human being is occurring.

IMO also, the whole Clinton debacle with Monica, Hilary's treating of staff, Lies, and other issues that be became so public so fast (we never heard a negative on past presidents till they were out of the office for affairs, other items are now immediately out and on the inet) brought down the meaning of presidents being above the public domain.

[themadone06]

I believe it is personally because of the time we are in. People are angry, scared, and confused by what is going on. With the direction Obama is taking his policies many people are becoming angry with him, even if they voted for him. There are always going to be some that will judge him on race, but I also believe it is a small population.

Let us also remember Obama's support polls are slipping steadily, and it isn't because he is black. Many middle Americans are upset with his policies.

[AmandaRose]

Well he is like half white on the inside but you just cant see it? :eyebrow: black genes dominated his skin color so then can it be that white dominate the rest of him? Lol.

ya know, I think maybe its his actions that people are not liking him for...he has all the signs of a dictator regardless of color..

maybe its his muslim ties and his reaching out and strengthening with this muslim world, telling them how 'sorry America is' and how 'America loves them'.... ?

[CorbinKale]

I saw a sign at the DC rally that said, "It doesn't matter what my sign says. You'll call it racism, anyway."

It is the lazy way to debate. When confronted with facts and irrefutable evidence, play the race card. It has always worked before, right?

Here is the unintended consequences of that. We don't care anymore. Like the cry of "Wolf!", 'racism' has lost its sting from overuse and false accusations. Now the socialists are left with failed arguements, and no one panics when they play the race game, anymore.

[Nero]

There is always a high degree of animosity from the "losing" party in politics toward the party in power.

The fact is, that simply because Obama's words, policies and views come from the Democratic side of things, there is going to be a sizeable portion that are automatically against anything his administration attempts to do. Without thought or regard as to whether or not said agenda is good for the country or not.

I think in government every action has yin and yang, due to the hugely diverse group of people that are affected by laws and amendments and so on, not everyone is going to be pleased, it's just not possible. So the opposing party will focus on the yang (small as it may be) and try to stretch it out as large as they can.

In this case it's the Conservative side who'll say no before the Democratic administration's words have begun to be uttered, just because of who the source is. So you have that aspect of the opposition...

However. After hearing day after day the "extra special level" of hostility and veracity aimed at this particular individual... (and the mind blowing thing to me is that I work with professed and outspoken "Christians" who boisterously and in all honesty discuss the party they'd throw should Obama be assasinated) it's obvious that the fact Obama's a black man is just so much salt in their festering wound. They'd disagree and be unhappy with his decisions regardless, but being his black just makes it intolerable.

I believe these people will accept a black man in office only if he's (as Uncle Steve put it in The Regulators) "the way that white people like their blacks to be." If Conservative ex-General Colin Powell had indeed run for President in years past, they would have rallied around him. But, as soon as he stepped out of line and endorsed Obama... suddenly they couldn't agree with him any longer. Because they don't follow a man for his convictions and trust his leadership, they follow him because Rush spits out a clever soundbite or quip and that sounds great when you repeat it in conversation. Because to these people, though the Democratic agenda is bad enough, it's effing HERESY if it's a black man dictating it to them. See, if they get out of line too much there's a point where they go from being black men, right back down the classic slurs who should be dealt with like their grandfathers and great grandfathers handled them.

The worst thing about what I'm saying... is that I know, no matter what anybody tells me, that there are huge portions of America that feel this way whether they're open about it or not. I see that ugliness every day where I work. It's unbelievable. I don't think these Conservative media pundits realize (or maybe they do) the sh*tstorm they are riling up with the things that they say.

[Jaedpact]

I guess there is something to be said about the stark contrast that we are seeing, I mean we are looking at night and day here as far as the current and previous administrations are concerned. I suppose there is backlash to be distributed in some form. I think i am too young to comment on the general expressions of approval or disapproval of the Clinton administration, and was too apathetic for most of W's first term. Maybe I am just getting exposed to the process of politics in general. I observe many people with unbriddle emmotional reponces to what should be an issue of data and methodology. I guess the question is why is that the case?

[boogerb53]

I think the loudest members of any group get the most notice. I support President Obama but do so by voting and telling people my opinon's based on the facts as I understand them. The people who support him and his ideals are not the ones going around at town hall meetings screaming and crying and shouting what the government is trying to do is right and all you other bastids can go to hell or Russia. The ones getting press are those who carry signs and shout and call names and say the government is trying to turn America into a Socalist Republic. I usually stay out of threads like ths because I'm not sure enough of my ability to translate my thoughts into written word. But this one I couldn't pass up. I think to a small degree everyone is prejudiced against some other group. I think the racist's against Obama are larger than people want to admit. I'm from the south and I hear the dreaded "N" word at least once a month. Not always out of hate, but mostly out of habit. And by electing Obama, I think we have started to dig our way out of that habit.

[Nero]

maybe its his muslim ties and his reaching out and strengthening with this muslim world

See, this is a perfect example of the issue. He's now been OMG branded as a (gasp) Muslim and/or (oh noes) having Muslim roots.

(btw Amanda I know you weren't necessarily presenting this argument in the way I'm going to portray it, I'm just using it because some people do think that way :D )

I have to ask... so what if he does or is?

The Muslim religion is not about killing, hating, or degradating America. Some extremists who happened to follow that religion, completely misinterpreting its tenents and putting them together with other issues they had with us... attacked us. Islam didn't attack the US. A bunch of nutjobs did. Look at the countless things done in the name of other religions, even domestic terrorism or incidents in the past.

So if people's issue is not that he is black, but that he is a potential Muslim, it's really just as bad isn't it? Does our Constitution not protect the ability to be Black, as well as the ability to be Muslim?

And if the people who believe that Obama is bringing the USA down from the inside... just because he's a Muslim... if these people really believe that about Islam, then why aren't they out terrorizing and killing people at the local Mosques in their neighborhoods? If they honestly feel that way and are such good Patriots... or are they knowingly just using it as yet another scare tactic to rile each other up? :eek2:

[devious1]

rjt, you're correct that President Bush was attacked mercilessly by other politicians and the media, i saw plenty of it... but not while he was giving a speech, which is what i am talking about with the Joe Wilson incident. when Bush was addressing congress or giving a State Of The Union address i'm sure there were many politicians in the audience who were not in agreement with him, as i'm sure it has been with every president... but they let him speak his piece, then attacked him afterwards. they gave him at least that much respect. every other president was given at least that much. i'm not saying that it is racism or prejudice that brings on this type of disrespect, but it makes me wonder what exactly it is.

as for people being angry, scared and confused, a lot of that is on the media... the right wing media is doing everything they can to make people scared, confused and angry, especially with the health care debate. and with the left wing media praising Obama as though he's the second coming of Jesus, it only makes the divide in the general public that much greater and more unstable. but it is not the citizens i'm talking about here, or the media... i'm talking about the Republican party itself. Joe Wilson apologized for the incident, but no one from the party came out and publicly criticized him for it. do they approve of that kind of tactic? if they don't they should have denounced his actions... it says a lot about them that they did not.

[Jaedpact]

Well he is like half white on the inside but you just cant see it? :eyebrow: black genes dominated his skin color so then can it be that white dominate the rest of him? Lol.

ya know, I think maybe its his actions that people are not liking him for...he has all the signs of a dictator regardless of color..

maybe its his muslim ties and his reaching out and strengthening with this muslim world, telling them how 'sorry America is' and how 'America loves them'.... ?

I have to take issue with your first sentnce here. I am Irish and Mexican, I would consider it an insult for some one to imply that my mexican genes dominated my skin color and also insulted to think that some one was considering how white I was on the inside. Truth be told this is an issue that, as a half Mixican American and half Irish American, has been a struggle for me through out most of my life. I live in North texas, and as a kid when i was growing up in my part of the poorer neighborhoods I was too tan for the white kids and didn't speak enough spanish for the Mexican kids.

In reagrds to the idea that the President of the USA is attempting to reassure the regions in which our troops currently reside and fight to liberate or maintain thier land, perhaps we should dwell on what happenned when we went in did our buisness and walked right out of there.

[AmandaRose]

excuse me, what I am saying here is that it does NOT MATTER what you see or don't, hes multiracial anyhow! Multiracial insultable? Why do you find insulting? I have Irish and Scottish roots and moreso Native American Indian in me and theres nothing you can say to make me feel insulted about it

[AmandaRose]

rjt, you're correct that President Bush was attacked mercilessly by other politicians and the media, i saw plenty of it... but not while he was giving a speech, which is what i am talking about with the Joe Wilson incident. when Bush was addressing congress or giving a State Of The Union address i'm sure there were many politicians in the audience who were not in agreement with him, as i'm sure it has been with every president... but they let him speak his piece, then attacked him afterwards. they gave him at least that much respect. every other president was given at least that much. i'm not saying that it is racism or prejudice that brings on this type of disrespect, but it makes me wonder what exactly it is.

as for people being angry, scared and confused, a lot of that is on the media... the right wing media is doing everything they can to make people scared, confused and angry, especially with the health care debate. and with the left wing media praising Obama as though he's the second coming of Jesus, it only makes the divide in the general public that much greater and more unstable. but it is not the citizens i'm talking about here, or the media... i'm talking about the Republican party itself. Joe Wilson apologized for the incident, but no one from the party came out and publicly criticized him for it. do they approve of that kind of tactic? if they don't they should have denounced his actions... it says a lot about them that they did not.

I agree with devious one :biggrin2:

[CorbinKale]

Joe Wilson apologized for the incident, but no one from the party came out and publicly criticized him for it. do they approve of that kind of tactic? if they don't they should have denounced his actions... it says a lot about them that they did not.

I saw ALL of the Republican leaders denounce Wilson's outburst as uncivilized and unprofessional on TV. Maybe the news is biased in Canada, that they wouldn't show both parties united in their criticism of Wilson. A Presidential Address is NOT the place to call the President a liar, even when he is lying.

Liberals have a terrible sense of what a lie is, though. They see it as a inaccurate statement. This is not true. For example, say I lay the keys on the table and tell you that that is where they are. When you look on the table and the keys are not there, a Liberal would say, "You lied!" (Bush lied!)Of course, that is NOT a lie, it is just an incorrect statement. I believed the keys (WMD) were on the table and was unaware that they had been moved.

The CORRECT definition of a lie is 'a statement, or lack thereof, made with the intent to deceive'. Using the example above, say I knew that someone had moved the keys after I put them on the table. When you ask for the keys, I say, "I put them on the table." While that statement is factually correct, my intent was to deceive, as I knew the keys were not on the table. It is, therefore, a lie.

Obama KNEW that there was no provision IN THE PROPOSED BILLS to provide health care for illegal aliens, so his statement was factually correct. However, he also knew that the proposed bills did not PREVENT illegal aliens from receiving health care using the funding from the legislation. He worded his statement carefully to be factually correct, while still lying. He DAMNED WELL knew that the Democrats had voted down every amendment that would PREVENT illegal aliens from taking advantage of the bill.

The slickest way to lie is to tell 'just enough truth', then shut up. Obama has mastered this technique. Wilson was correct in his accusation, but he picked the wrong venue. Freedom of speech is not the freedom to shout down other's freedom of speech.

[themadone06]

Joe Wilson apologized for the incident, but no one from the party came out and publicly criticized him for it.

Actually they were plenty of quotes from Republicans criticizing the comment. I know there was one Representative from Ohio, and several others. I don't remember all their names or states. I'm sure many of them may have been thinking it, but they did not say what Wilson did.

Just because the media didn't show any Republicans criticizing Wilson does not mean it didn't happen.

[AmandaRose]

Corbin your intelligence blows my mind as always, people should really listen to you cause youre very indepth and finely in tune with what the hell is going on out there.

[littleone328]

i thought i'd start a thread on this since it's been all over the media lately... the argument that those who oppose Obama are doing so out of racial prejudice. recently former President Jimmy Carter made the comment that most of Obama's detractors are disparaging him based on his race. President Obama himself said he does not believe this, and in fact quipped just last night on Letterman that "it's important to realize, i was actually black before the election..." but let's take a serious look at this.

i don't believe that all negativity and animosity toward Obama is race based. i believe there is a certain sector of Americans who do openly judge him based on his race, but i also believe that sector is fairly small. i think a lot of it comes down to the usual republican vs. democrat stuff, only ramped up to the nth degree. but let's take the now infamous "you lie!" quip from Joe Wilson and look at it. i don't believe Joe Wilson is racist (however i really don't know much about him, other than it was his wife that the Bush Administration outed as a spy a few years back... remember that? good times... ) but i have to ask this: what is it about Obama that made Joe Wilson (and others) feel that he deserves less respect than any other President? i've never heard a politician shout out something like that during a President's speech in the past, and there have been some hated Presidents in American history... hell, half of the Republican party was against George Bush, the most hated President ever based on polls, and no one heckled him. he was the President and regardless of the job he was doing, he deserved respect. but apparently they don't feel Obama is worthy of the same respect shown to every President before him. is it just coincidence that the first black President is shown less respect than any of the previous white Presidents? or is there some merit to the claims of prejudice?

Wasn't it George W. that got a shoe thrown at him. The president took on a hard job in this economy. He needs to be cut some slack

[scarywriter]

devious1:
The Joe Wilson that yelled during Pres. Obama's speech is a previously unremarkable Congressman from SC.
Former Ambassador Joe Wilson had his CIA operative wife outed by Bush admin insiders. They are different people.
I have had the pleasure of meeting the former Ambassador and he is a very interesting individual. I cannot imagine he would stoop to heckling a President with whom he disagreed.

[Srbo]

My dear American friends, all what I have to say about Mr Obama is this - you have not have such a great president and leader since the days of John Kennedy.

You just can`t see it yet, he is too close to your eyes...as in the saying " you don`t see the forrest from the trees ".

Step back and just give the man time - he will be hailed like none in at least a century.

Race has nothing to do with it.

That`s all.

[Haunted]

When the white president is criticized it is considered freedom of speech by the criticizer. And that we are letting him know that he and his policies are being monitored and some of the people like his policies and some of the people hate them.

But when this black president is criticised for his policies those levelling the criticisms are racist.

What's with that?

[thymeoperator]

I think it is important to note that perhaps there remains a Not-so-open sector that descriminates against Obama based on race. I cannot think of a solid reaon otherwise. He isn't the first President to be accused of attempting to guide the US towards Socialism.

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't america already sort of socialist anyway? what i mean is, the govt goes ahead and makes war decisions without the people's vote, and financial decisions without the people's vote, etc. in a true democracy people would have to vote on EVERYTHING, but that's not the case - the govt makes a lot of decisions without the people. and i even understand it in some cases, because the population is so huge it's kind of impossible to have that true idealistic democracy. but i'm not really trying to debate about the rights and wrongs about it - the point is just: socialism is already there to a certain extent, has been for years, people ought just to accept it.

sorry, i know that's not on the issue of racism! but i felt inspired to note it all the same.

[Nero]

I've seen 2 political cartoons dealing with Franklin D Roosevelt made in the mid to late 1930's, and they could be word for word used about what's going on today regarding Obama. The parallels are incredible.

They were negative cartoons about FDR and his policies. It's uncanny how perfect they are for what's going on right now. They were saying the exact same negative propaganda against him (worsening the depression/economy, he just wants to spend spend, bad for business, constitution violator, he's socialist/fascist, all kinds of stuff).

And now he's known as one of the 3 greatest presidents. Now almost 100 years later we're at the same crossroads.

And the wheel of Ka spins ever on. Let's help this one pick up the horn instead of get in his way.

[rjt65]

Actually is apparently turning onto a dictatorship!:down:

We as a democracy are not supposed to vote on everything rather, we elect people to follow Laws and thus our system is supposed to have checks and balances

Both the Republican and democratic parties have been violating our laws Presidents, senators and congressman all the way down from fed to local.

Apparently they think they are sovereign dictators and above the laws we all are supposed to live under. Sighh






correct me if i'm wrong but isn't america already sort of socialist anyway? what i mean is, the govt goes ahead and makes war decisions without the people's vote, and financial decisions without the people's vote, etc. in a true democracy people would have to vote on EVERYTHING, but that's not the case - the govt makes a lot of decisions without the people. and i even understand it in some cases, because the population is so huge it's kind of impossible to have that true idealistic democracy. but i'm not really trying to debate about the rights and wrongs about it - the point is just: socialism is already there to a certain extent, has been for years, people ought just to accept it.

sorry, i know that's not on the issue of racism! but i felt inspired to note it all the same.

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

Let's go back to the beginning of the thread here -- this is what devious1 posted in the beginning:

<quote> <edited some to remove irrelevant bits>
i thought i'd start a thread on this since it's been all over the media lately... the argument that those who oppose Obama are doing so out of racial prejudice. recently former President Jimmy Carter made the comment that most of Obama's detractors are disparaging him based on his race. President Obama himself said he does not believe this, but let's take a serious look at this.

i don't believe that all negativity and animosity toward Obama is race based. i believe there is a certain sector of Americans who do openly judge him based on his race, but i also believe that sector is fairly small. i think a lot of it comes down to the usual republican vs. democrat stuff, only ramped up to the nth degree. but let's take the now infamous "you lie!" quip from Joe Wilson and look at it. i don't believe Joe Wilson is racist (however i really don't know much about him, ) but i have to ask this: what is it about Obama that made Joe Wilson (and others) feel that he deserves less respect than any other President? i've never heard a politician shout out something like that during a President's speech in the past, and there have been some hated Presidents in American history... hell, half of the Republican party was against George Bush, the most hated President ever based on polls, and no one heckled him. he was the President and regardless of the job he was doing, he deserved respect. but apparently they don't feel Obama is worthy of the same respect shown to every President before him. is it just coincidence that the first black President is shown less respect than any of the previous white Presidents? or is there some merit to the claims of prejudice?
<end quote>

1) Did Mr. Carter say "most"? I can't find a verbatim quotation from him, but when I googled "carter + obama + racism", the things that looked most like direct quotes seemed to indicate that he said "MANY"... something like "many of his attackers do not believe that a black man can be qualified to run the country."

2) I doubt that anyone rational is saying that ALL criticism directed against Obama is race-based.

3) It's clear that some part of that criticism IS inspired by racism; whether that's a small percentage or a large one is open to debate. I think I probably attach more importance to that subset than devious1 does.

4) Joe Wilson and "You lie!" The only thing I know about Joe Wilson's past is that when his state government was criticized for flying the Confederate flag outside government buildings, he fought to keep them, claiming that they represented an important and valuable South Carolina tradition. That sorta hints at what his mindset might be, though it isn't a blatant & unmistakable smoking gun...

My own feeling about what that "you lie" thing represented is that Wilson felt emboldened ("empowered", if you want to use a psychobabble word) by the loud, confrontational behavior that had been happening at those "town hall meetings" on the subject of health care and he wrongly felt that he and his fellow republicans could act out the same way during the presidential address. (Don't forget that there were other senators carrying picket-signs and performing other little bits of shtick...) That was a MAJOR miscalculation of tone, and a MAJOR violation of suitable etiquette, and it says a lot about the Republicans to see that they thought that kind of thing might be appropriate... but whether racism was a factor in all of that, for me, is a judgement call.


When the white president is criticized it is considered freedom of speech by the criticizer. And that we are letting him know that he and his policies are being monitored and some of the people like his policies and some of the people hate them.

But when this black president is criticised for his policies those levelling the criticisms are racist.

What's with that?

They say a picture is worth a thousand words... take a look at this and then tell me that racism has nothing to do with the attacks against Pres. Obama:

http://ladylibertyslamp.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/poison-ivy-in-the-astroturf/obama-racist-latest/

We all float down here.

[Born In Sin]

Imagine a day when we don't notice a skin color...

[Srbo]

Imagine a day when we don't notice a skin color...

Believe or not, call me liar - but I never noticed it.
Ever.

For instance, it is absolutely the same if BB King plays a song or Bob Dylan...if Larry Bird shoots the hoops or Michael Jordan...and so on and so forth...

I am just in awe of some people...and Mr Obama is one of them.

You shall see.

[CorbinKale]

Imagine a day when we don't notice a skin color...

Sounds nice, but I think Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson will see to it that racism remains a lucrative profession.

[Born In Sin]

Believe or not, call me liar - but I never noticed it.
Ever.

For instance, it is absolutely the same if BB King plays a song or Bob Dylan...if Larry Bird shoots the hoops or Michael Jordan...and so on and so forth...

I am just in awe of some people...and Mr Obama is one of them.

You shall see.


I believe you, because I am the same :love:
I believe what is on the inside is what REALLY matters and we are all the same color.

[benbennett]

What a very diverse country the US is. Forty years ago Sammy Davis Jnr could headline at any Las Vegas hotel but not stay there. He would live in a trailer in the car park. Aretha Franklin could be No1 in the Billboard charts but couldnt sit where she wanted on a bus in Alabama. So you've come a long way over there.

The question I've not seen asked yet is how many people voted for Obama simply because he was black ?

As a politician he seems ill prepared to hold such high public office, like Jimmy Carter was.

[Born In Sin]

What a very diverse country the US is. Forty years ago Sammy Davis Jnr could headline at any Las Vegas hotel but not stay there. He would live in a trailer in the car park. Aretha Franklin could be No1 in the Billboard charts but couldnt sit where she wanted on a bus in Alabama. So you've come a long way over there.

The question I've not seen asked yet is how many people voted for Obama simply because he was black ?

As a politician he seems ill prepared to hold such high public office, like Jimmy Carter was.

I did not vote for him, I voted for John McCain.

[Srbo]

I don`t know, guys, I don`t know...you can say all you want, but, here, take me for instance:

In the media, still, the Serbs are interpreted as one of the worst nations in the history of mankind, right next to Hitlers Germany sometimes.

Now, do you look at me as a Serb or you call me your friend cos you appreciate what I say and how much I value your friendship and thoughts ?

I know, politics is not the same, but we all depend on each other.
Ka-tet, remember those words ?

People voted for Mr Obama cos they wanted change...he said " we can "...and people believed.

They still do, and so do I.

Like I said, give him time. He is the best thing that could happen to America and the World, IMHO.:smile2:

[AmandaRose]

The question I've not seen asked yet is how many people voted for Obama simply because he was black ?



Thank you. I think that number would be significantly high, and that my friends, is definetly racism.

but as for the whole matter overall, this is not why peoples like for him are declining, remember what he said on Letterman....

that in case ya didn't know, he was black before he was elected...

I also believe that the Senator's outburst was as surprizing to himself and supporters as anyone, and just an example of how seriously troubled many people have become with proposed intentions and actions and their ability to maintain good and professional behavior can escape them, I think Corbin had mentioned this also, they feel pushed.

[devious1]

well ok, i stand corrected on 2 counts... i missed seeing them, but some republicans did publicly criticize Joe Wilson...my mistake. i also stand corrected on who Joe Wilson is... i heard the name and (wrongly) assumed it was the same man... my bad.

part of the problem does come from how the Republican party deals with the media though. take guys like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, who as far as i'm concerned are going after Obama using race-based attacks. their argument against his tax increases for his health care plan is that it's "reparations..." he's stealing from the rich white man to give it to the poor. both have stated that they believe Obama is racist, and Beck said he believes Obama has a deep-seeded hatred for white people. yet even though both these men have hundreds of thousands, even millions of viewers/listeners and major influence over public opinion because of that, very little has been done by the party leaders to condemn these two, or any of the many other right wing journalists and pundits who have made similar comments. these men do not speak for the Republican party (or are at least not in an offical position to be spokespeople) yet many people who consider themselves republicans follow these men and believe their every word. more should be done by the republican party to distance themselves from these types of comments and the people who make them, because i think a lot of people feel that these men, as well as Fox News and other right wing journalists and programs, publications, etc., do represent the republican party and its platforms and beliefs. doing nothing seems like approval of these kinds of tactics in my view.

[AmandaRose]

Quoting Lencho of the Apes...


Joe Wilson and "You lie!" The only thing I know about Joe Wilson's past is that when his state government was criticized for flying the Confederate flag outside government buildings, he fought to keep them, claiming that they represented an important and valuable South Carolina tradition. That sorta hints at what his mindset might be,

stereotypical bullsh!t.

[AmandaRose]

Lencho is this a picture of racism also...?

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/7000/GEORGE-BUSH-CONDOLEEZZA-RICE--7247.jpg

ya cant take these seriously. Bushtar say get off my porch! :laugh:

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j182/swiftian/050907/bush_tarzan.jpg

[themadone06]

My dear American friends, all what I have to say about Mr Obama is this - you have not have such a great president and leader since the days of John Kennedy.

You just can`t see it yet, he is too close to your eyes...as in the saying " you don`t see the forrest from the trees ".

Step back and just give the man time - he will be hailed like none in at least a century.

Race has nothing to do with it.

That`s all.

I'm sorry, but I just have to say something. Why does everyone say John Kennedy was such an amazing leader and President? I'll give the man credit for his social and racial views, and he was a great man but still. He worked a miracle with the Cuban Missile crisis and other issues, but he also had glaring weaknesses in his Presidency and life.

Here are just a few examples. He okayed the plan that eventually lead to the assassinations of the Diem brothers. They were horrible and tyrannical leaders of South Vietnam, but after them there was never a stable government there. He signed off the Bay of Pigs invasion. He increased the amount advisors in Vietnam, eventually leading to a war. He chose a Vice President just to pick up southern protestant votes, and then effectively left him in the dark when it came to public policy. It has been stated that Kennedy was planning on pulling us out of Vietnam, but he was killed before his actions could take place. Instead his Vice President took control, and knew nothing of the Vietnam situation. Also Kennedy selected McNamara as his Secretary of Defense. He picked a man that had no prior knowledge of the job and had no idea what the job entailed. He picked the President of Ford to be Sec. of Defense!

I would also like to remind people he cheated in his election. Votes from the deceased were found years later. Also Kennedy was always on pain killers and other drugs to kill the pain from his back problems. It has been cited in many historical sources that he took unsafe combinations and doses of drugs that would often cause wild mood swings and poor judgement. He cheated on his wife constantly and in my opinion his playboy lifestyle leaves a scar on his presidency.

Sorry for the rant, I just always see more bad then good when I reflect on Kennedy's presidency. He was a charismatic young president, who was killed before his time. People fell in love with Kennedy after his assassination, and his approval rating skyrocketed after his death. What did he do? Nothing. He did great things with the Cuban missil crisis and also had social beliefs before his time. I would rank him in the middle of the pack when it comes to Presidents. I laughed my ass off when Susannah tells Roland how great of a President Kennedy was in DT 7.

Kennedy was a great speaker who charmed the people with a smile and with feel good but empty words. It is no different with Obama. It is easy to sway people with the words "yes we can" or "change". It is easy for them to listen to and keeps them from thinking. I have not seen anything from the Obama presidency except for slipping poles and him smiling and joking on late night. Actually that is what I expected his presidency to be, no good actions, but people will still gush when he smiles and reads another amazing speech from a teleprompter.

[jnote]

People voted for Obama because they wanted change. Now they are complaining because he is making changes.
He has done more in the past 9 months then Bush did during two terms of office.
Health care has needed an overhaul for years. Let's see what this administration can do.

[SKfan2006]

i do believe he is a liar since he wasn't born in the USA and lied about it by covering up his birth certificate and fabricated one to 'prove' he was american. some of his policies are the beginning of a comunnist party since he wants GOVERNMENT run programs. at the next census they plan on having questions like when you leave for work, how long you work for, how much you make, and so on. if that isn't a bad thing i don't know what is.

[beachnutt]

I have a lot of feelings on this subject. First of all, why does any one race get to claim him? He's not just "black", he's biracial. That means he's white, too. Raised by white grandparents ... gee, just like my granddaughter. We don't tell her she's "white" or "black", she just is. Should we tell her she's black so she gets preferential treatment?

Next, just because people have a problem with his leadership (or lack thereof) and question it doesn't mean they're being racist. For goodness' sakes...how many Dems hated Geroge W.? How many couldn't wait until he was out of office and trounced on EVERYTHING he said or did? For years, he was put through the wringer. Were they being racist against W?

I don't consider myself a true R or D although I probably lean more to the R's because of my upbringing. I vote for the person and their abilities.

I did not vote for Obama, but I feel like he needs to be given a chance. I feel that way towards whoever is elected. What really gets me is the people who vote for a person and their person doesn't get elected, so they want NOTHING to do with the newly elected person. Whatever happened to respect for the position? I think that's part of the downhill slide for our country...very few people have any respect for others anymore. You don't have to worship another person, just show a little respect now and then.

Well, I could go on, but I think I've said enough for now.......

[Nero]

i do believe he is a liar since he wasn't born in the USA and lied about it by covering up his birth certificate and fabricated one to 'prove' he was american.

lolz


His mother was a citizen so he could have been born on mars and he'd be a citizen... I know, I have 2 brothers born abroad with dual citizenship, not to mention myself.

[Nero]

I have a lot of feelings on this subject. First of all, why does any one race get to claim him? He's not just "black", he's biracial. That means he's white, too. Raised by white grandparents ... gee, just like my granddaughter. We don't tell her she's "white" or "black", she just is. Should we tell her she's black so she gets preferential treatment?



interesting theory.

if the coffee has milk in it, it can't be claimed by the coffee or the milk.

maybe the Star Bucks will claim him in their Frapuccino line?

[AmandaRose]

lolz


His mother was a citizen so he could have been born on mars and he'd be a citizen... I know, I have 2 brothers born abroad with dual citizenship, not to mention myself.

but isnt it a violation of the Constitution for anyone with dual citizenship even be able to run for President? can someone explain this to Arnold Schwarzeneggar please? :oo:

[Nero]

but isnt it a violation of the Constitution for anyone with dual citizenship even be able to run for President? can someone explain this to Arnold Schwarzeneggar please? :oo:

i don't think he has dual citizenship currently, you can opt to drop one.

you just have to be born a citizen.

see, mccain was born in panama and had the same deal going on. but nobody says anything about that.

i guess it only counts if you are muslim?

[Moderator]

but isnt it a violation of the Constitution for anyone with dual citizenship even be able to run for President? can someone explain this to Arnold Schwarzeneggar please? :oo:

First, his Hawaiian birth certificate is legal, but here is the information about what is a natural born citizen. Arnold Schwarzeneggar may have dual citizenship but he was not a natural born citizen.

From HowStuffworks (http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=president.htm&url=http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_govt.html#Exec)
The duty of the Executive Branch is to enforce the laws of the United States. The branch is headed by the President. The Constitution sets out the qualifications for the President in Article 2, Section 1 (http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A2Sec1):


35 years old or older
Must be a natural-born U.S. citizen
Must have lived in the United States for fourteen years

There is a bit of ambiguity in some of these requirements. First, the definition of "natural-born" is a matter of law, and, hence, interpretation. For example, the child of American citizens who happened to be overseas when the child was born is considered natural-born. A child born in an acquired U.S. territory (such the U.S. Virgin Islands) is considered a citizen at birth as determined by law. To be safe, a person is eligible to be President if that person was born in a state after the date of statehood. If a person was born in a territory or overseas, one should check the U.S. Code (Title 8) to be sure. Next, there is no clarity on the 14 year requirement. Few think that it means 14 consecutive years inside the United States, as that would likely disqualify many citizens who traveled abroad or who lived in military bases. Some think it should mean 14 accumulated years from birth, including time in U.S. military bases, embassies, and off-shore offices of U.S. corporations. It may take a Supreme Court decision to set the rule in stone.

[AmandaRose]

i don't think he has dual citizenship currently, you can opt to drop one.

you just have to be born a citizen.

see, mccain was born in panama and had the same deal going on. but nobody says anything about that.

i guess it only counts if you are muslim?



uh no, maybe if we elected a Satanist some day? complete nut to those who dont believe in Satan and scary as hell by those who do. Religion irrelevant isnt it?

its the same old with all of them, and now tribal photgraphs are only racist if youre of any color. :biggrin2:

[Nero]

its the same old with all of them, and now tribal photgraphs are only racist if youre of any color. :biggrin2:

i'd tend to agree with that, but then it wouldnt make much sense if that person of color was inserted in a pic like, say this one

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/ultimateluis/hillbillybush.jpg

[Jaedpact]

Regarding the office of President of the United States of America and the status of that persons religion: I can not believe that Jimmy Carter was the first Presidential Candidate to admit to being a "Born Again Christian".

He did this with out an agenda and was ridiculed by his peers... Now-a-days we are nearly operating as a Theocracy. Strange.

Understand I am 28, I have never known a political candidate that has not been on that band wagon.

[AmandaRose]

i'd tend to agree with that, but then it wouldnt make much sense if that person of color was inserted in a pic like, say this one

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/ultimateluis/hillbillybush.jpg

well, if he were raised by a white granny it might, :laugh:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/AmandaRosexxx/obamahb.jpg

[Nero]

hmmm touche

[BlackThorn]

North Carolina senator? Have you looked at that guy? Of course he's racist. They still have "rebel trailer parks" down in the Carolina.

Race to me means just about nothing. To me, it means whether or not your body has the potential to be attractive. People have had prejuidices towards me my whole life. My my choice of clothing, by my financial status and class, by my attitudes and my opinions. People hate me and judge me because of the music I listen to. Do you honestly think I care what color your body is, weighed about how true of a human being you are?

Hell, if you wanna get right into it, being intelligent puts you into a minority class these days. If you're in the upper 93 percentile of your verbal or mathematical abilities, than that means, out of 100 people, only seven could solve the same problem you could in the same time. Go stand in the corner kids, you're different.

Besides. Obama only needs to keep the people who voted for him already happy. He doesn't need to win over the percentage that would never in their lives vote for a 'black' like Obama. He already has the majority. So now, he just needs to keep me happy, which he's doing quite well.

[AmandaRose]

hmmm touche

ya gotta have a sense of humor Nero, or at least you need to about these silly things, that silly photo, was inspired by your silly photo. :wink2:

[Nero]

ya gotta have a sense of humor Nero, or at least you need to about these silly things, that silly photo, was inspired by your silly photo. :wink2:

hehe i know, and you got a point on me there haha, i was smiling as i announced your touche!

[Jaedpact]

You know what I don't get...
Why is it that Joe Wilson can call the Pres a liar. that he can break decorum and make an a** of himself and be rewarded with Hundreds of thousands of dollars. Follow the cash the guy was uncomonly rude and disrespectful and it provided him with tons of cash... This type of thing reminds me of The Dead Zone.

[AmandaRose]

hehe i know, and you got a point on me there haha, i was smiling as i announced your touche!

:smile2: Im glad to hear that, and I was smiling the whole time too when I saw it cause I knew I could soooo get you! :biggrin2:

[themadone06]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/216210

[jnote]

I don't understand when people say that Obama wants government run programs. Don't we have gov. run programs now such as Medicaid, Medicare, Soc. Security, our military, etc. etc.
By the way, why does anyone really care where Obama was born? Arnold Schwarzenegger currently is gov. of one of our largest states and he wasn't born in US.

[SKfan2006]

see, mccain was born in panama and had the same deal going on. but nobody says anything about that.

he is a citizen. he was born in the panama canal zone which at the time was a territory of the US like Purto Rico and he was born in a US military base and if you were born in a military base that's not owned by the country its in you are a citizen of the country that owns the base. so either way mccain is a natural citizen of these here united states.

[SKfan2006]

well jnote governor isn't the same as president. to be a governor you don't have to be a natural born citizen so Schwarzenegger is legal to be governor but not for president.

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

I said my piece and I was prepared to move on, but, Amanda, you're addressing me directly in a way that feels like a personal attack, and I'm not a person who backs down when he's challenged. That may be a character defect, but I'm at peace with myself.


Quoting Lencho of the Apes...


Joe Wilson and "You lie!" The only thing I know about Joe Wilson's past is that when his state government was criticized for flying the Confederate flag outside government buildings, he fought to keep them, claiming that they represented an important and valuable South Carolina tradition. That sorta hints at what his mindset might be,

stereotypical bullsh!t.

Oh, am I wrong? Is there no connection between "honoring Confederate tradition" and adhering to an old-Southern mindset, including its racist components? I lived in Florida and Georgia for almost twenty years, but maybe you know more about the south than I do.


Lencho is this a picture of racism also...?

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/7000/GEORGE-BUSH-CONDOLEEZZA-RICE--7247.jpg




http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j182/swiftian/050907/bush_tarzan.jpg

I don't know if that's a "picture of racism" (you mean "a racist picture", yes?) or not, Amanda. I don't know who made it, where it was displayed, or what it was intended to mean when its creator put it together. If you want to fill in those background details for me, I'll be able to form an opinion and I'll be happy to share it with you.


Meanwhile, do you have anything to say about the "Obama = witch doctor with bone in nose" picture? If I say to you "picture 1 is racist" and you say "yeah but yeah but lookie-here, pictures 2 and 3, are they racist too?" that really isn't an argument that addresses the question of picture 1.



its the same old with all of them, and now tribal photgraphs are only racist if youre of any color. :biggrin2:

I don't understand what this means at all.

We all float down here...

[Nero]

he is a citizen. he was born in the panama canal zone which at the time was a territory of the US like Purto Rico and he was born in a US military base and if you were born in a military base that's not owned by the country its in you are a citizen of the country that owns the base. so either way mccain is a natural citizen of these here united states.

right, that's what I'm saying. You have to be born a citizen, so even though McCain wasn't born physically in the US, he was born to US citizens abroad so therefore a natural citizen of the US

Same as Obama, even if the doubters are right about him not being born in Hawaii, it would be null because he was born to US citizen no matter what.

[AmandaRose]

I said my piece and I was prepared to move on, but, Amanda, you're addressing me directly in a way that feels like a personal attack, and I'm not a person who backs down when he's challenged. That may be a character defect, but I'm at peace with myself.



Oh, am I wrong? Is there no connection between "honoring Confederate tradition" and adhering to an old-Southern mindset, including its racist components? I lived in Florida and Georgia for almost twenty years, but maybe you know more about the south than I do.



I don't know if that's a "picture of racism" (you mean "a racist picture", yes?) or not, Amanda. I don't know who made it, where it was displayed, or what it was intended to mean when its creator put it together. If you want to fill in those background details for me, I'll be able to form an opinion and I'll be happy to share it with you.


Meanwhile, do you have anything to say about the "Obama = witch doctor with bone in nose" picture? If I say to you "picture 1 is racist" and you say "yeah but yeah but lookie-here, pictures 2 and 3, are they racist too?" that really isn't an argument that addresses the question of picture 1.



I don't understand what this means at all.

We all float down here...


Dear Lencho,

I don't challenge people out here :biggrin2: I merely addressed your posts. Personal attacking with the likes of ... Bushtar? omg, I could do better than that lol.

The pictures that I posted are floating out there on the net, no idea who made them or their intentions, BUT, simply to imply that this tribal getup was done by people with Bush too, whom of course is white, and Rice right alongside him who is black of course... and in a same photo, could one be considered depiction of racism by chance and the other not? I wondered this of people who draw these conclusions.

as youre pointing out this is 'witch doctor' in your photo, I get it now and that depiction might be more relative to the 'healthcare' issue. :laugh: dont ya think?

As for the Confederate flag here in the South, it is NOT a *symbol* of racism but continues to be labeled such, further enhanced by comments like yours... about the rude outburst and ' where his mindset might be' cause of that flag and the South... ?

Its all about the Ch ch ch ch changes....and fast and furious are you ready?

[AmandaRose]

oh and

the comment about it being the same with all of them, meant just that, hes being treated no differently than his predecessors.

[JohnDalglish]

As for the Confederate flag here in the South, it is NOT a *symbol* of racism but continues to be labeled such,

Hi,

I can certainly vouch for that insofar as it is perceived over here.

I've had many American friends who were very proud of the flag, which is of course, a Saltire like the Scottish flag and were as far removed from racists as it's possible to be.

Like Lynryd Skynryd using it as a stage backdrop.

Long days and pleasant nights

[Srbo]

Hi,

I can certainly vouch for that insofar as it is perceived over here.

I've had many American friends who were very proud of the flag, which is of course, a Saltire like the Scottish flag and were as far removed from racists as it's possible to be.

Like Lynryd Skynryd using it as a stage backdrop.

Long days and pleasant nights

Nothing wrong with that flag.
Even the Serbs loved it...:biggrin2:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTU2Njg2Nzg2NF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTg4OTIyMQ@@._V1._SX281_ SY400_.jpg
(http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTU2Njg2Nzg2NF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTg4OTIyMQ%40%40._V1._SX 281_SY400_.jpg)

[jnote]

well jnote governor isn't the same as president. to be a governor you don't have to be a natural born citizen so Schwarzenegger is legal to be governor but not for president.

I agree, but it is close enough. I'm sure the republicans would love to have Arnold are president if they could.:grinning::grinning:

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

John and srbo, yez both seem to be overlooking one important detail... what does that flag represent to a black person who looks at it? (Hint: "they went so far as to fight a WAR over their supposed right to own us as property.") I'm sure neither of you want to say that only white peoples' opinions are worthy of consideration...

John, maybe you're romanticizing it through perceiving an analogy between the Southern Confederacy and Scotland's ""colonialized" position vis a vis England? A more appropriate analogy, seems to me, would be to imagine people in Germany continuing to fly Nazi-era German flags. How would anyone, Jewish or gentile, react to that? Comparing the cause du jour to Nazism is a tired ol' trope, but in this case I think it's not a hyperbole -- if anything deserves to be compared to the Holocaust, it's the centuries of slave trade...


We all float down here.

[scratchesass]

I agree, but it is close enough. I'm sure the republicans would love to have Arnold are president if they could.:grinning::grinning:


I'd settle for a simple minded hobo if he had some morals.

Not that the Governator fits those requirements..... Well, except for maybe the simple minded part......

[AmandaRose]

John and srbo, yez both seem to be overlooking one important detail... what does that flag represent to a black person who looks at it? (Hint: "they went so far as to fight a WAR over their supposed right to own us as property.") I'm sure neither of you want to say that only white peoples' opinions are worthy of consideration...



We all float down here.


well that would depend on the black person wouldnt it, former NAACP president H.K. Edgarton defends Southern culture and history....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._K._Edgerton

http://www.thehuntsvillechronicle.com/images/hkeg05.jpg

that wasnt a war about ownership, but a war about MONEY, and being wronged in that regard, it was not about a love of owning a person.

the 'North' who so proudly hail today as the good guys were the ones who 'went out', retrieved, captured, purchased people, and 'sold them' to people in the South. Sometime after, the North grew a conscious ? ... and wanted to 'take back' their own evil doings, It was ALL wrong, but remember that the North started it all.

All the men and boys who died fighting under that Confederatae flag were not slave owners, they were fighting for their families and their land and we don't tarnish their memory around here by disrespecting this flag that they fought for.

[Moderator]

From About.com (http://afroamhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/slavery_2.htm):

In 1517, the trans-Atlantic slave trade officially began. As slave trading developed into big business, European countries vied for dominance. By the 17th and 18th centuries, the main traders were Dutch, French, and English companies. While independent traders existed, the Dutch West India Company and the English Royal African Company monopolized trading relations on the African coast. However, in the end, England came to dominate trading, and began providing slaves to not only its own colonies, but to other countries colonies.

Slavery in the U.S. was not limited to the South but how slaves were treated varied from state to state.

The point that also gets lost in the history of the American Civil War is that slavery was not the only issue. It was also about the separation of federal government and individual states rights. My understanding (granted it's been a long time since I sat in a History class) is that it was the belief of the Southern states that the federal government was trying to interfere in their local laws that made them decide to secede but the slavery issue was the catalyst. And admittedly, growing up in New England, the perspective was probably skewed towards the Northern viewpoint.

[JohnDalglish]

Hi,

I'd just take issue with one thing there, Ms Mod; the words 'English' and British' are often confused outside the UK, and as a Scot I'm only too well aware of the part my forebears played in this heinous trade.

Long days and pleasant nights

[Jaedpact]

I would not consider the act of identifying a symbol as one that is easily interpreted to be aligned with that of persons fighting to maintain thier right to own people as they see fit with out the intervention of a federal government to be the act of "Tarnishing a memory". In this case, the memory in question must be veiwed in it's entirety, there were issues that southern states had regarding the feds outlawing anything that the states feklt that had control over. Do not dismiss the fact that Slavery was a catalyst. That is The soouth felt so strongly thet thier ability to own humans was so important that no other force on the earth had the right to call it into question and change the laws regarding said ownership.

It's called a rebel flag. They rebeled agains Uncle Sam regarding the buisness of making laws. The laws that caused the most furor were those laws concerning owning people. The flag is a symbol of racism.

That being said I truely believe that there is at least one generation of Americans that grew up post civil war and vcame to believe that the flag was important in regards to political power, and that there is at least one generation after that that is completly ignorant as to the causes of the civil war and the possible implications the rebel flag could hold for persons of color. These people have been raised in such an atmosphere of ignorance as to allow the Confederate flag to be considered a fasion statement as apposed to the powerful imagery that it actually is.

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

It's true that I generalized broadly and implied that "all" black people would have negative feelings about The Confederacy, the secession, and related issues. One hundred percent consensus never happens under any circumstances. It's also true that I over-simplified by not mentioning the fact that other issues apart from slavery were involved in the Civil War. (But I was writing IN CHARACTER, the person I was pretending to quote didn't have any reason to give an objective historically-neutral statement about the Civil War.)

H K Edgerton? Looking at his wikipedia entry, he would appear to be... insane. Ecce homo... insanus, to quote the Harvard Man from Cell. A black man who defends the Ku Klux Klan and claims that slavery wasn't a bad thing for anyone involved? I don't think he's even qualified to hold an opinion. And I think it's disingenuous at best to push him forward as an example of how black people feel about the Confederacy and related issues.





the 'North' who so proudly hail today as the good guys were the ones who 'went out', retrieved, captured, purchased people, and 'sold them' to people in the South. Sometime after, the North grew a conscious ? ... and wanted to 'take back' their own evil doings, It was ALL wrong, but remember that the North started it all.

How did you manage to turn this into an "us against them" thing? You're going 'oh, the north is nasty, they want to suppress us and make it impossible for us to be proud of ourselves' or something, and that's something completely new that you're bringing to the table.




All the men and boys who died fighting under that Confederatae flag were not slave owners, they were fighting for their families and their land and we don't tarnish their memory around here by disrespecting this flag that they fought for.

Again, who's "we"? Are you doing what I mentioned to john and srbo, speaking the opinion of the dominant group without noticing that there's an opposing group whose opinions are also worthy of consideration? (Not northerners, an opposing group of (most) southern blacks and those southern whites who are sensitive to nuance and able to recognize that the Confederate Flag is genuinely offensive to (most) black people and that they're justified in rejecting it.)

I still say that the Confederate Flag has a meaning for black people similar to what a Third Reich flag would have for a Jew. If you can't see beyond the boundaries of your own group and grant equal validity to their viewpoint, there's nothing more I can say on the subject.

We all float down here.

[devious1]

i gotta agree with Lencho here... the Confederate flag, in and of itself, may not symbolize racism, but that is how it is viewed by many people. to dismiss their genuine (and justified) offense because you don't see it that way is pointless... it is how they feel. their feelings and beliefs are just as valid as those who believe the flag is a symbol of respect for those who fought and died for it. his nazi example is a good one... let's take the swastika for example... a swastika on its own has nothing to do with Nazism or the Third Reich... swastika were used by hindus as far back as the Neolithic period and actually represent involution and evolution of the universe, depending on which way it is facing. but if i were to hang a swastika flag outside my house today, i believe there would be many people who would be deeply offended by it because to them it means something entirely different. and they would be justified in their offense to it. it may not have been my intention to offend with it, but to dismiss a group of people who have a valid reason to find it offensive would be ignorant and insensitive on my part.

another good example would be the way a lot of white kids throw around the "n-word" these days... they listen to rap music and hear the rappers using it all the time, so they think it's ok for them to use the word... they are not using it in a racist manner, rather they see the word as a term of endearment, like "what's up, my ni**a?" so they see no problem with using it... but many people are deeply offended by the use of the word, whether it's used in a racist manner or not. the word itself symbolizes racism to them, just as a flag may symbolize racism or hatred to some. sometimes it's not the item or the word itself that is the problem, it's the way it is perceived. i don't think those who see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism and enslavement of a race of people should be dismissed simply because the way it is used now is not how they perceive it.

[AmandaRose]

[QUOTE=Jaedpact;328668]

That is The soouth felt so strongly thet thier ability to own humans was so important that no other force on the earth had the right to call it into question and change the laws regarding said ownership.

It's called a rebel flag. They rebeled agains Uncle Sam regarding the buisness of making laws. QUOTE]

if you are viewing in entirety, lets hear your feelings on why the North felt sooo strongly that they 'had the right' to 'sell' other human beings' in the first place? What the hell was up with that?

yes, it is a rebel flag and people who fought and died under it are called rebels and I will add that the flag is hailed proudly by many here in the South, who *did not* condone any slavery and are *not* racist. :wink2:


The laws that caused the most furor were those laws concerning owning people. The flag is a symbol of racism.

what bullsh!t, and though its not a symbol of racism, sadly people like you are passing along this misconception, and what caused the most furor was the North trying to push the South around. period.

[AmandaRose]

It's true that I generalized broadly and implied that "all" black people would have negative feelings about The Confederacy, the secession, and related issues. One hundred percent consensus never happens under any circumstances. It's also true that I over-simplified by not mentioning the fact that other issues apart from slavery were involved in the Civil War. (But I was writing IN CHARACTER, the person I was pretending to quote didn't have any reason to give an objective historically-neutral statement about the Civil War.)

H K Edgerton? Looking at his wikipedia entry, he would appear to be... insane. Ecce homo... insanus, to quote the Harvard Man from Cell. A black man who defends the Ku Klux Klan and claims that slavery wasn't a bad thing for anyone involved? I don't think he's even qualified to hold an opinion. And I think it's disingenuous at best to push him forward as an example of how black people feel about the Confederacy and related issues.




How did you manage to turn this into an "us against them" thing? You're going 'oh, the north is nasty, they want to suppress us and make it impossible for us to be proud of ourselves' or something, and that's something completely new that you're bringing to the table.



Again, who's "we"? Are you doing what I mentioned to john and srbo, speaking the opinion of the dominant group without noticing that there's an opposing group whose opinions are also worthy of consideration? (Not northerners, an opposing group of (most) southern blacks and those southern whites who are sensitive to nuance and able to recognize that the Confederate Flag is genuinely offensive to (most) black people and that they're justified in rejecting it.)

I still say that the Confederate Flag has a meaning for black people similar to what a Third Reich flag would have for a Jew. If you can't see beyond the boundaries of your own group and grant equal validity to their viewpoint, there's nothing more I can say on the subject.

We all float down here.

H K Edgerton is a bad example of a black mans opinion about the flag? why, because he has studied the history and culture more deeply than most and able to see it from many more perspectives?

Bad things have happened throughout history but you cant ever change them. Equal validity to viewpoints? Who is giving a sh!t about the people who had to fight for this flag, cemeteries here are loaded with Confederate soldiers who were NOT slave owners.

and when I say 'we' I am referring to me and mine and my hometown in the South. The Confederate flag here has been hailed a proud emblem forever here and it always will be. If people want to perceive it racism, then thats their ignorance.

[AmandaRose]

the Confederate flag, in and of itself, may not symbolize racism, but that is how it is viewed by many people. to dismiss their genuine (and justified) offense because you don't see it that way is pointless... it is how they feel. .


Youre trying to say that Im dismissing others viewpoints by expressing mine?

I cant imagine what you consider viable in this respect.... to take the Dixie car tag off if you sport one?

have that Confederate flag tattoo removed?

dont dare be seen near an image of this flag or you will be profiled a racist immediately?

I respect others opinions but they should respect mine too, and find it quite
sad that society is now 'teaching' others that this is a symbol of racism.

[sam peebles]

Umm...so about Obama and racism...yeah...

[JohnDalglish]

another good example would be the way a lot of white kids throw around the "n-word" these days... they listen to rap music and hear the rappers using it all the time, so they think it's ok for them to use the word... they are not using it in a racist manner, rather they see the word as a term of endearment, like "what's up, my ni**a?" so they see no problem with using it... but many people are deeply offended by the use of the word, .

Hi,

Yes, I'm deeply offended by the word myself, but I think it extreme hypocrisy in a society for the word being OK if used by one social (or racial) grouping and anathema if used by another.

Long days and pleasant nights

[AmandaRose]

Umm...so about Obama and racism...yeah...

Ummm, no, its not about his race, if it were, he wouldnt have been elected in there in the first place.

[AmandaRose]

Hi,

I can certainly vouch for that insofar as it is perceived over here.

I've had many American friends who were very proud of the flag, which is of course, a Saltire like the Scottish flag and were as far removed from racists as it's possible to be.

Like Lynryd Skynryd using it as a stage backdrop.

Long days and pleasant nights

Nicely put John. too bad we can't bring Ronnie Van Zant to the table here with his input, but we do get his address to Neil Young about it here...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFw1IqxGIb8

[sam peebles]

Maybe I need to clarify. I wasn't giving "yeah" as an answer to a question. Simply trying to steer the conversation back to the topic originally posted. While the connotations of the Confederate Flag are related to a history of racism in America (whether you are willing to recognize that fact or not), and I found both sides of the argument interesting to read, I thought it was playing out and becoming exhausting. I would never give such a blunt and simplistic answer as "yeah" to such a convoluted and sensitive subject as Obama and racism.

But since you mention it...it is about his race, at least to some people. He wasn't voted in unanimously. And let me clarify again, that I am not stating that all people that DIDN'T vote for him are therefore racist, but lets be realistic here, some of them are. To some (doubtless no one here on SKMB) it is as simple and shallow an issue as the color of the man's skin (hell, I could name people in my own family where this applies). And to say "America isn't racist. We elected a black president" is ignoring a deeper issue at hand.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I could my message in an eloquent rambling to explain my depth of annoyance with racism, but I choose to put it in its base message:
I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sick of racism.

[devious1]

Youre trying to say that Im dismissing others viewpoints by expressing mine?no, expressing your viewpoint does not mean you are dismissing their viewpoint. but making comments stating that the fact some people see it as a symbol of racism is "bullsh!t" and perception of the flag in that manner is "their ignorance" is very dismissive and disrespectful of their viewpoint.


I respect others opinions but they should respect mine too, and find it quite
sad that society is now 'teaching' others that this is a symbol of racism.calling people ignorant and saying their feelings toward the flag are bullsh!it isn't exactly respecting other people's opinions. and while i feel that the flag is a symbol of respect and remembrance for those that fought and died for it, there are some negative connotations to it for a lot of people. i find it quite sad that instead of teaching children the entire history of their country, some people would prefer to whitewash it to suit their own perception of things.

[rjt65]

symbols and people that use them?

As most may know I am Yankee through and through! Pinstripes and all! New yawker!!!

Does the confederate flag flag bother me ? no
Do I understand why it bothers people? Yes --- from what i have seen Racism and segregation still exists, especially in the south:

why few months ago i watched an hbo special about kids-trying for the first time to have an integrated black and white prom in Mississippi--amazing this thinking (some parents till hold a seperate prom for the white kids)

http://www.hbo.com/docs/docuseries/promnight/interviews/

not that is is non existent in new york etc.. but nowhere near the south....
the KKK has used this flag as a symbol , but others use it to represent the south its perceived glorious days etc...

But this is not an easy issue---

is it fair to claim all people who fly the flag are racist? no
is it fair to not listen and act for people that do associate that flag with the KKK or other issues that are racial - no

Read upon the swatstika on how a nazi group (losing) ruined the variant cross symbol used centuries by groups, indians, etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Can add the chritain cross, pentacle to another list of symbols with different meanings to diff. peoples.

[SKfan2006]

right, that's what I'm saying. You have to be born a citizen, so even though McCain wasn't born physically in the US, he was born to US citizens abroad so therefore a natural citizen of the US

Same as Obama, even if the doubters are right about him not being born in Hawaii, it would be null because he was born to US citizen no matter what.

try explaining that to some countries. in history there was one country where the queen of their country was on vactaion but started to go into labor while at the hotel so the government bought the hotel as part of the country until after the baby was born to have the heir be a natural-born citizen of their country. if they hadn't done that the baby wouldn't have got the throne at all since the baby wouldn't be a citizen at all. this goes for americans so the only places to be born and be considered a natural-born citizen are the 50 states, puerto rico, US virgin islands, Guam, north mariana islands, a couple other pacific islands owned by america, and american military bases like the one mccain was born at.

[SKfan2006]

I agree, but it is close enough. I'm sure the republicans would love to have Arnold are president if they could.:grinning::grinning:

i'm republican and i don't want Arnold as president:eyebrow:. so what does that make me?

[AmandaRose]

Maybe I need to clarify. I wasn't giving "yeah" as an answer to a question. Simply trying to steer the conversation back to the topic originally posted. While the connotations of the Confederate Flag are related to a history of racism in America (whether you are willing to recognize that fact or not), and I found both sides of the argument interesting to read, I thought it was playing out and becoming exhausting. I would never give such a blunt and simplistic answer as "yeah" to such a convoluted and sensitive subject as Obama and racism.

But since you mention it...it is about his race, at least to some people. He wasn't voted in unanimously. And let me clarify again, that I am not stating that all people that DIDN'T vote for him are therefore racist, but lets be realistic here, some of them are. To some (doubtless no one here on SKMB) it is as simple and shallow an issue as the color of the man's skin (hell, I could name people in my own family where this applies). And to say "America isn't racist. We elected a black president" is ignoring a deeper issue at hand.

yeah I knew what you meant. :wink2:

[AmandaRose]

no, expressing your viewpoint does not mean you are dismissing their viewpoint. but making comments stating that the fact some people see it as a symbol of racism is "bullsh!t" and perception of the flag in that manner is "their ignorance" is very dismissive and disrespectful of their viewpoint.

calling people ignorant and saying their feelings toward the flag are bullsh!it isn't exactly respecting other people's opinions. and while i feel that the flag is a symbol of respect and remembrance for those that fought and died for it, there are some negative connotations to it for a lot of people. i find it quite sad that instead of teaching children the entire history of their country, some people would prefer to whitewash it to suit their own perception of things.


dear devious one,

two things I said were bullsh!t....

one, that Joe Wilsons past involvement with supporting the Confederate flag might sorta hint or explain away his rude outburst.

second, that the laws that caused the most furor of the Civil War were those laws specifically concerning 'owning people'.

and I do think they are. :smile2:

and if you feel children should be taught the entire history of their country, and slavery in particular here, then why not explain that it was the African people that sold them to begin with and not all a white mans fault, that slavery was nationwide, and worldwide, and not just in the South. I dont prefer to whitewash anything.

and I haven't called anyone here ignorant, but as a generalization, I do feel that anyone that stereotypes and profiles a person, of this nature, is just that.

and thats my opinion

Now, I love you! don't make me have to come back in here dev!

and now if you would excuse me.... :glare:

[AmandaRose]

symbols and people that use them?

As most may know I am Yankee through and through! Pinstripes and all! New yawker!!!

Does the confederate flag flag bother me ? no
Do I understand why it bothers people? Yes --- from what i have seen Racism and segregation still exists, especially in the south:

why few months ago i watched an hbo special about kids-trying for the first time to have an integrated black and white prom in Mississippi--amazing this thinking (some parents till hold a seperate prom for the white kids)

http://www.hbo.com/docs/docuseries/promnight/interviews/

not that is is non existent in new york etc.. but nowhere near the south....
the KKK has used this flag as a symbol , but others use it to represent the south its perceived glorious days etc...

But this is not an easy issue---

is it fair to claim all people who fly the flag are racist? no
is it fair to not listen and act for people that do associate that flag with the KKK or other issues that are racial - no

Read upon the swatstika on how a nazi group (losing) ruined the variant cross symbol used centuries by groups, indians, etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Can add the chritain cross, pentacle to another list of symbols with different meanings to diff. peoples.

:oops: I didnt know you was a dam yankee, I have to hog tie you and drag you back to the photo shop... :laugh:

[scratchesass]

My dear American friends, all what I have to say about Mr Obama is this - you have not have such a great president and leader since the days of John Kennedy.

You just can`t see it yet, he is too close to your eyes...as in the saying " you don`t see the forrest from the trees ".

Step back and just give the man time - he will be hailed like none in at least a century.

Race has nothing to do with it.

That`s all.


All due respect mi amigo, the proof is in the pudding. Judge Obama not by what he has said for the last year (and that's been plenty), but by his actions (and this countries growth and prosperity, which is what made JFK so great) in the next 3.


I know you say give him time, and that's what I plan on doing. But you can't say that he's GOING to be a great president with any more assuredness than I can say I'm GOING to win the lottery.

As far as the 'Southern Cross' is concerned, it no more means "I support racism" than the swastica meant "I support Hitler" to the ancient peoples who used it.

It's a symbol of the South, like Pecan Pie and grits. Is cotton a sign of racism simply because the South used slave labor in the cotton fields?


Sure, there may be some of my southern bretheren who hold on to it( the flag) for those reasons, but, I don't hear any uproar from the masses about people who fly the Jolly Rodger for a lark. Do they support pirates? Pirates are bad, m'kay.....

Would you condemn the many for the beliefs and actions of a few? If you condemn the Rebel Flag that is EXACTLY what you are doing.

[thymeoperator]

wow, and a thread like this and drew didn't start it!! :)

this all reminds me of that south park episode about their local flag and the issue of racism. anyone see that? it consists of a bunch of white stick figures hanging a black one (well, technically it was brown) and chef is outraged and wants it changed, but the others are saying they're not racist for wanting it to stay, it's just about their town heritage, etc. and in the end chef is yelling at the kids and then realises they didn't even notice the colour difference in the stick figures and thought the argument was about the violence. so in the end all the community hug and make up, and they make a new flag where there are lots of people, all in different colours (red, blue, green, black, white, etc.) all hanging each other, and everyone's happy! very funny.

[Bluey Lunger]

i thought i'd start a thread on this since it's been all over the media lately... the argument that those who oppose Obama are doing so out of racial prejudice. recently former President Jimmy Carter made the comment that most of Obama's detractors are disparaging him based on his race. President Obama himself said he does not believe this, and in fact quipped just last night on Letterman that "it's important to realize, i was actually black before the election..." but let's take a serious look at this.

i don't believe that all negativity and animosity toward Obama is race based. i believe there is a certain sector of Americans who do openly judge him based on his race, but i also believe that sector is fairly small. i think a lot of it comes down to the usual republican vs. democrat stuff, only ramped up to the nth degree. but let's take the now infamous "you lie!" quip from Joe Wilson and look at it. i don't believe Joe Wilson is racist (however i really don't know much about him, other than it was his wife that the Bush Administration outed as a spy a few years back... remember that? good times... ) but i have to ask this: what is it about Obama that made Joe Wilson (and others) feel that he deserves less respect than any other President? i've never heard a politician shout out something like that during a President's speech in the past, and there have been some hated Presidents in American history... hell, half of the Republican party was against George Bush, the most hated President ever based on polls, and no one heckled him. he was the President and regardless of the job he was doing, he deserved respect. but apparently they don't feel Obama is worthy of the same respect shown to every President before him. is it just coincidence that the first black President is shown less respect than any of the previous white Presidents? or is there some merit to the claims of prejudice?

President Obama is probably thinking, oh no, not that guy from Georgia! Remember when the Clintons held office and everyone looked up and there was Jimmy, over in North Korea? Somebody hand that man a shovel!

I'm sure there are racists out there but the race card is wearing mighty thin.
I'd be more inclined to question the man's so-called "intelligence". The man has no concept of police training. That was evident in his comments to do recently where he insulted police. Or how about before he was elected, "we live in the greatest country on earth, work w/me to change it." He's stuck his foot in his mouth enough. Minimize it all. We love our team.

I thought there was something available on-line to do with President Obama's racism. Sorta like before he was elected, that bit about folk in western Pennsylvania "clinging to their guns and religion." Intelligent? Yeah, right.

Or how about his so-called intelligence to be a part of that church, the All-Illinois Church of the Modern Christ, you know the one, place where a man in white robes took God's name in vain and cursed the US of A? Seems like we could return to Dixie and mention some other folk in robes, and the accompanying hood, standing around a burning cross.

Personally, i think the Uranians are responsible. And all those alien communication devices in most living rooms, often flat screen, are used to dim the wits of otherwise "intelligent" people.

[JohnDalglish]

I don't hear any uproar from the masses about people who fly the Jolly Rodger for a lark. Do they support pirates? Pirates are bad, m'kay.....


Hi,

And if you look at 'Origins of the term' you'll see that the 'Jolly Roger' was, like Columbus's sails, a corruption of a much older Templar flag, and was used extensively by Freemasons.

Jolly Roger

Long days and pleasant nights

[Nero]

All due respect mi amigo, the proof is in the pudding. Judge Obama not by what he has said for the last year (and that's been plenty), but by his actions (and this countries growth and prosperity, which is what made JFK so great) in the next 3.


I know you say give him time, and that's what I plan on doing. But you can't say that he's GOING to be a great president with any more assuredness than I can say I'm GOING to win the lottery.

As far as the 'Southern Cross' is concerned, it no more means "I support racism" than the swastica meant "I support Hitler" to the ancient peoples who used it.

It's a symbol of the South, like Pecan Pie and grits. Is cotton a sign of racism simply because the South used slave labor in the cotton fields?


Sure, there may be some of my southern bretheren who hold on to it( the flag) for those reasons, but, I don't hear any uproar from the masses about people who fly the Jolly Rodger for a lark. Do they support pirates? Pirates are bad, m'kay.....

Would you condemn the many for the beliefs and actions of a few? If you condemn the Rebel Flag that is EXACTLY what you are doing.

lol I see your point Scratch, but I think the Jolly Roger flag is a bad example.

Maybe after mankind has had enough time go by and racism has gone the way of the dodo, and people then can look back and say "haha, remember a hundred or two years ago when there was racism, what a bunch of silly folks! Let's dress lik'em for Halloween!"

Maybe then people can fly that flag in jest or as a fashion statement the same way people do today with the Jolly Roger and not a single person will blink.

The Rebel flag isn't personally offensive to me whatsoever, I could give 2 s**ts when I see it on trucks or on a t-shirt around here or wherever. And it does mean different things to different people. It's just that to some people it represents a mindset (which undeniably still exists in places in this country) that is kinda twisted.

This is a free country, by all means fly that flag if one wants to, it is our right.

I'd point out though the KKK's conical hat/mask has historical roots outside of racial terrorism, and the same argument could apply to it. Is it a good idea to wear that around casually?

Where do we as a society draw the line when it comes to this stuff? Do we empathize with our fellow man to a reasonable extent?

In a few years, if a group of Muslims get on somebody's airplane wearing attire and garb extolling Islamic Jihad, does that mean we should be totally comfortable with it because we'll just assume they're among the many who think of Islamic Jihad in the Greater sense (resisting sin) as opposed to the Lesser (combative war) aspect of it?

We should be perfectly comfortable with it, I assume, because only a few Muslims (in comparison to the Muslim world population) have chosen to use it in a way that is inconvenient for the rest of us.

[SusanNorton]

Okay, I've got to step up and defend (most of) my peeps. :)

Yes, there probably is more racism in the south. However, I believe there is a much larger population of African Americans here in the deep south, and for the most part we work and go to school together harmoniously, and respect and even admire our cultural differences.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist - far from it. I'm just saying it isn't exclusive to the south, where most of us just want to get along with each other.

[staropeace]

Pirates arent bad.:down:

[Countrygirl_sass]

Well on the president...I agree with a few things and disagree with many more. For example adding 3 hours to a childs school day is not the answer to bringing up test scores to keep up on a global level. I will fight that til the end, and then homeschool if it ever happens. And IF it does, they should pay kids for spending 11-12 hours at school every day. Things need to be fixed in school, and there is little money or funding for it, and that and shortening summer or being open on weekends is certainly not a fix.

Now on the south, I am from La. and have seen the rebel flag all my life, and have seen rascist people all my life. And it works both ways for whatever the reason may be. And they are everywhere in the world no matter how much anyone just has to demand it is just in the south in the USA(and with many different races). I never felt that the kids with the flags felt like they were johnny reb fighting for the rights to own slaves, but the adults, now thats a different story for some of them.

I don't get it and have never owned one, but the General Lee does not offend me and I know plenty of black people that are not bothered by it. But, I can see how it would. Its like a constant reminder of a past that some just will never escape, and neither can we. And for those few people that carry it for hate, it makes it hard for someone else just to have it as a historical thing. *shrugs shoulders*

[JohnDalglish]

Pirates arent bad.:down:

Hi,

Not when they're played by Johnny Depp, they're not.

But when they're a bunch of Somalian extremists waving AK47's in your face....?

Long days and pleasant nights

[AmandaRose]

Well on the president...I agree with a few things and disagree with many more. For example adding 3 hours to a childs school day is not the answer to bringing up test scores to keep up on a global level. I will fight that til the end, and then homeschool if it ever happens. And IF it does, they should pay kids for spending 11-12 hours at school every day. Things need to be fixed in school, and there is little money or funding for it, and that and shortening summer or being open on weekends is certainly not a fix.




I have heard about this possible new 'Change' and am extremeeelyyy infuriated about it.

[AmandaRose]

Well on the president...I agree with a few things and disagree with many more. For example adding 3 hours to a childs school day is not the answer to bringing up test scores to keep up on a global level. I will fight that til the end, and then homeschool if it ever happens. And IF it does, they should pay kids for spending 11-12 hours at school every day. Things need to be fixed in school, and there is little money or funding for it, and that and shortening summer or being open on weekends is certainly not a fix.



Obama says kids in the United States need more school because kids in other nations have more school. They need it to globally compete!

My coworker and I were discussing this the other day, she happens to be African American and a huge Obama supporter, and this is what she had to say...

'Whattt??? Has he lost his mind? Theres no way thats gonna pass. This is not other countries, this is America! Hes going to end up getting himself put out of there'.

oh and shes not racist, lol. To continue to consider all the dislike for his bullsh!t Changes to be race motivated are accomplishing only distraction.

and I do also find the similarities between this man and the Left Behind series Nicolae Carpathia ... quite eerie. Charming, Handsome, Loved the world over, Worldy minded, Global intentions, Ultra Maximum security, Praised and glorified, etc. etc. etc. One World order. and media, omg, talkin sh!t on all these latenight talkshows....? Wonder why we hasnt hit Limbaugh yet.

America is supposed to be the country of Freedom, why is it his obvious goal to make us, Force us, to 'be like all these other countries' ? I was glad he lost the Olympics to Rio btw. :rofl: and it has 'nothing' to do with 'race'! lol

[Tery]

While not everyone who criticizes Obama is a racist, far too many use policy as a shield to hide behind. There is and always will be people who judge others by race. Or color. Or religion. These people are sad and sick. They use policy "positions" to hide their racism but it is there.

I grew up in the South, too. I remember well the separate drinking fountains, bathrooms, schools... It bothered me when I was young and it bothers me even more now when some people talk as if that should be the norm. As for the flag... it IS a symbol of racism. It is also a symbol of pride. It is not up to anyone to decide which of these it *ought* to symbolize to others.

Was Wilson's outburst racist? Probably not. But it was rude, boorish and out of order. BTW, that is not the same Joe Wilson whose wife was outed as a CIA operative. Different guy completely. That Joe Wilson is a writer and columnist... and has manners.

I really have to say, Amanda... that last post about school and global competition was really, incredibly insulting. Not only to the President but to anyone who believes that America should be as good as the rest of the world in education. I mean, do you LIKE the US being stupider than other countries? Really??

And you're happy Chicago lost the 2016 Olympics? It honestly makes me sick that people will be so dead-set against the President that they would wish suffering on their fellow citizens. Chicago -- CHICAGO, not Obama -- lost thousands of jobs that would have started immediately. They lost a potential 4billion (give or take a million) dollars. Are you so selfish in this time of economic trouble that you would deny work and money to a place just because you don't like someone that lived there?? REALLY??

I'm pretty darn sick of this rhetoric. Obama is president because he was elected. That's how we change things in this country -- we VOTE. His is a legal administration. Anyone who buys this "birther" crap is, IMHO, stupid or using it to hide racism. The birth certificate is available and has been for over a year. This is just an attempt to make him out to be "other", "not one of us." It's contemptible bull. Can we stop with all of the nonsense and get to the job of fixing this country? Because there are STILL people living in poverty here. Still people starving. People with no health care. No job. No money. No hope. And I am sick, sick, SICK of idiots trying to undermine efforts to FIX IT. People are dying. Get over it and do something to help instead of trying to tear everything down.

[Tery]

Oh, and a simple search on Photobucket brings up images like these :

http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae78/Kegs45/obama_pimpdaddy.jpg
This one is entitled "Pimp Daddy Obama"

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj296/hco12345/PimpsAndHos.jpg
"Pimps and Hos"

and this one came from an Orange County, CA mayor(!)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/maryscottoconnor/AA1/watermelons.jpg


If those aren't racist, I'm Lisa Simpson!!

[SKfan2006]

America is supposed to be the country of Freedom, why is it his obvious goal to make us, Force us, to 'be like all these other countries' ? I was glad he lost the Olympics to Rio btw. :rofl: and it has 'nothing' to do with 'race'! lol

i agree with the school since kids do not do better with more school. it's been proven that kids do better on a 4-day schedule than a 5-day one.

if he makes us like these other countries will that make them like us?:laugh: me and my mom were discussing this while watching amazing race and she thinks every country hates us becasue we can get what we want when we want it. if that's true then most of europe should be hated along with Autrailia, NZ, and Japan since they can get what they want when they want too. i just think if they learned to clean up their act they can be so much better like said countries. but no they just continue with their stupid little 'politics' and religious fights(middle east). if they can only set aside their differences they can put their money where it needs to be spend, on the economy and for the people. that's whats kept the USA and Europe alive all these years.

[scratchesass]

Pirates arent bad.:down:


Piracy is VERY alive today. More common than most folks realize.

Disneyland supports piracy...... They gots rides and everything.....

DOWN WITH DISNEY! DOWN WITH DISNEY! DOWN WITH DISNEY!


You see where I can go with this....... Anyone out there want to sue Disney wit me??????

That sounds as silly to you as condemming the Rebel flag does to us.

[JohnDalglish]

I was glad he lost the Olympics to Rio btw. :rofl: and it has 'nothing' to do with 'race'! lol


Hi,

Me too, at least Rio will have a better Olympic thong.

Thorry, I'll see myself out.

Long days and pleasant nights

[PatInTheHat]

If I have my quote correct, what Carter said was "I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact he's a black man".
If one doesn't (can't/won't) believe that statement doesn't ring absolutely true, then I find myself curious as to what pigmentally challenged utopia one might have lived before immigrating to the shores of our crayolally wonderfully rich America, and was that before or after one has woken from ones oxygen deprivation induced coma (ok, I admit I'm totally guessin' here, 'cause I don't have a clue as to exactly how much air there actually is in sand)...hey, them cell phones and and that there MTV must be pretty cool & groovy huh:eyebrow:?

Here's another one...an educated observation of a genius IQ'd nobel peace prize winning, ex nuclear submarine commanding, super cracker peanut farming philanthropist, who still pounds nails for the needy (and who's 85 years, have given him pretty accurate first hand knowledge of segregation & Jim Crow atrocities) from the rural south (not to mention being a governer of Georgia, as well as president during some particularly adverse racial times), versus the opinion of waaayyyy over payed far right lunatic moronic talking head crackers (crack heads?) like the Limbaugh's (such a blatantly obvious racist he gives your average bigot a bad name) & the Beck's (who gives lunatics a bad name..I must say I greatly resent that:suspect:)...and both of whom give virtually all money grubbing whores a bad rap in my opinion:glare:.
(I give you that they're just the more extreme examples)
Now I'll give ya that there's a tough one, peanuts versus just plain nuts, hmmm...........

[AmandaRose]

While not everyone who criticizes Obama is a racist, far too many use policy as a shield to hide behind. There is and always will be people who judge others by race. Or color. Or religion. These people are sad and sick. They use policy "positions" to hide their racism but it is there.

I grew up in the South, too. I remember well the separate drinking fountains, bathrooms, schools... It bothered me when I was young and it bothers me even more now when some people talk as if that should be the norm. As for the flag... it IS a symbol of racism. It is also a symbol of pride. It is not up to anyone to decide which of these it *ought* to symbolize to others.

Was Wilson's outburst racist? Probably not. But it was rude, boorish and out of order. BTW, that is not the same Joe Wilson whose wife was outed as a CIA operative. Different guy completely. That Joe Wilson is a writer and columnist... and has manners.

I really have to say, Amanda... that last post about school and global competition was really, incredibly insulting. Not only to the President but to anyone who believes that America should be as good as the rest of the world in education. I mean, do you LIKE the US being stupider than other countries? Really??

And you're happy Chicago lost the 2016 Olympics? It honestly makes me sick that people will be so dead-set against the President that they would wish suffering on their fellow citizens. Chicago -- CHICAGO, not Obama -- lost thousands of jobs that would have started immediately. They lost a potential 4billion (give or take a million) dollars. Are you so selfish in this time of economic trouble that you would deny work and money to a place just because you don't like someone that lived there?? REALLY??

I'm pretty darn sick of this rhetoric. Obama is president because he was elected. That's how we change things in this country -- we VOTE. His is a legal administration. Anyone who buys this "birther" crap is, IMHO, stupid or using it to hide racism. The birth certificate is available and has been for over a year. This is just an attempt to make him out to be "other", "not one of us." It's contemptible bull. Can we stop with all of the nonsense and get to the job of fixing this country? Because there are STILL people living in poverty here. Still people starving. People with no health care. No job. No money. No hope. And I am sick, sick, SICK of idiots trying to undermine efforts to FIX IT. People are dying. Get over it and do something to help instead of trying to tear everything down.

Tery, I know you love and support Obama, and lets just say I respect your opinions though I disagree with them. I wont use words like sick or insulting with regard to what you say and nothing you can post is going to rile me up about it.

Obama is embarrassing a great deal of his supporters about now, I know hes embarrassing the US, out here apologizing for our country being so sh!tty on this global tour of his, then is suprized that the Olympics 'wont' be held here?

Yes We Can. then Olympic Committee said... 'No, You Can't!. :eek2:

[Nero]

and I do also find the similarities between this man and the Left Behind series Nicolae Carpathia ... quite eerie. Charming, Handsome, Loved the world over, Worldy minded, Global intentions, Ultra Maximum security, Praised and glorified, etc. etc. etc. One World order. and media, omg, talkin sh!t on all these latenight talkshows....? Wonder why we hasnt hit Limbaugh yet.




You are correct, Tim LaHaye has correctly prophesied a perfect Blueprint for how the Antichrist is going to operate. We can use Left Behind as a concrete checklist so that we can be on the lookout for wicked Obama and his sinister agenda. Because that is exactly how it is going to go down, the books are not like a fictional pop culture account narrating a story based on loose speculation and translation of the most symbolic and unsure book in the New Testament. I forgot, will Obama's reign of terror also be set to the soundtrack of Steven Curtis Chapman and Michael W. Smith?

[Nero]

I'm just saing don't forget, Obama is only the latest in a long, long line of prominent figures being labeled by the Antichrist. OH well, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I guess maybe if they label EVERYONE that way then one day they'll get to say "we were right".

[Adrian]

He is a capitalist, and I really think capitalism is not reformable or how english speaking people prounounce that:).
I would prefer an libertarian/anarchist society.

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

I wont use words like sick or insulting with regard to what you say

:eek2:

How about "bullsh!t" or "ignorant" ? Will you use those words? If I understand correctly, you're claiming that Teri's making personal attacks but you're too noble to do that... *ahem*...

We all float down here

[Moderator]

Personally, I have far more respect for someone who is able to admit to making mistakes than someone who ignores that anything wrong has ever been done. We do live in a great country that has done many wonderful things but we are not without our share of wrongdoings either. To pretend otherwise is to continue the thinking that earned us the “ugly American” reputation. IMO, that attitude is arrogant and ignorant. I seriously wonder if those who are quick to claim that Obama is trashing our country either are of the same mindset that Americans can do no wrong or bothered to listen or, more to the point, actually heard what was being said after his statement that we have committed wrongs. Obama admitted to our having made mistakes in the past and said that we are a great nation with the ability to do better because we can and because we should. It is that willingness to not come across as arrogant and being the bully of the world that is earning us respect in many parts of the world where we have not had it for quite some time.

[JohnDalglish]

Hi,

That's exactly why I wanted to set the record straight about Scotland's shameful part in the slave trade earlier in the thread, Ms Mod.

Long days and pleasant nights

[AmandaRose]

How about "bullsh!t" or "ignorant" ? Will you use those words? If I understand correctly, you're claiming that Teri's making personal attacks but you're too noble to do that... *ahem*...

We all float down here

Personal attacking Me? How?! :laugh: Would I say bullsh!t or ignorant? you know dam well I would, and even *elaborate* as have done the 'two times' and the 'one time'.

not that I feel its any of your business 'personally' but I respect Tery as a board member here Ive known her for a long time here and on another site, and do 'respect' her, but some others are another story... now, get off my porch. :biggrin2:

[AmandaRose]

I'm just saing don't forget, Obama is only the latest in a long, long line of prominent figures being labeled by the Antichrist. OH well, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I guess maybe if they label EVERYONE that way then one day they'll get to say "we were right".

What are the Chances that one man would meet 12 out of 19 conditons BEFORE he even takes office?

of course the others have to be filled AFTER he gets in there..


yet another reason many people dont like him or support him, and what does it have to do with his race but nothing.

but we're not to worry about such Nero as Im sure there are more people who believe that the whole Bible is bullsh!t anyway right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqgvAvjOB6E

[devious1]

Personally, I have far more respect for someone who is able to admit to making mistakes than someone who ignores that anything wrong has ever been done. We do live in a great country that has done many wonderful things but we are not without our share of wrongdoings either. To pretend otherwise is to continue the thinking that earned us the “ugly American” reputation. IMO, that attitude is arrogant and ignorant. I seriously wonder if those who are quick to claim that Obama is trashing our country either are of the same mindset that Americans can do no wrong or bothered to listen or, more to the point, actually heard what was being said after his statement that we have committed wrongs. Obama admitted to our having made mistakes in the past and said that we are a great nation with the ability to do better because we can and because we should. It is that willingness to not come across as arrogant and being the bully of the world that is earning us respect in many parts of the world where we have not had it for quite some time.you know, i've had a lot of trouble understanding this mindset as well. is America a perfect country? no. does that mean it's not a great country, because it has areas that need fixing? no. but it seems that in America these days, acknowledging that the country has any problems at all gets you labeled as unpatriotic or anti-American. Obama's plan to raise education levels may not be the right plan (i don't think keeping kids in school longer will help at all) but something should be done. 30 years ago America had the best and brightest students in the world, now they just barely round out the top 20... for a country that was once seen as the greatest in the world, and still claims itself to be, that is a long way to fall. ignoring the problems and pretending America is great in every way does nothing to solve them, and you can't fix what's broken when no one will even acknowledge that it needs fixing in the first place. as Ms. Mod pointed out, Obama has stated that he believes America is a great country but that it can be better. i completely agree with that. now, whether or not his policies will actually make anything better... that's up for debate.

[devious1]

well i think rationality just flew out the window in this debate... are we seriously looking at Obama as the antichrist now??? good Lord.

[sam peebles]

but we're not to worry about such Nero as Im sure there are more people who believe that the whole Bible is bullsh!t anyway right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqgvAvjOB6E

Raises hand.

[Nero]

but we're not to worry about such Nero as Im sure there are more people who believe that the whole Bible is bullsh!t anyway right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqgvAvjOB6E

Nope, I don't believe the Bible is BS whatsoever, but the translation/doctrine many people have adhered to due to dispensationalism I think probably is.

[PatInTheHat]

Im sure there are more people who believe that the whole Bible is bullsh!t anyway right?



Speaking only for myself, not anymore than I would a copy of Aesop's Fables, or the works of the Grimm's Brothers (though I do find the Bible to be waaayy creepier, not to mention more delightfully sick & twisted:biggrin2:).
Why I'd swear it on a Bible:wink2:.

[Rhett]

I think I've read through most of the post on this topic and a couple of things:

1. I live in the south, and I think most of the kids in my high school loved the rebel flag. I overheard many, many n---r jokes, but never an articulate discussion on state vs. federal rights. The way historians remember causes for the war may be vastly different than common folks. Perception=Reality. We don't remember Mr. Lincoln for anything but freeing the slaves.

2. There is an odd catch-22 with the race issue. People see it everywhere, or no where. Dialouge between extremes is difficult. To question Obama is racist. To question racism and you are a liberal hippie. Stereotypes bickering with stereotypes.

3. My wife teaches junior level English. So many students walk into her class room without knowing to capitalize the pronoun 'i' she has to write specific lesson plans for it. Same with indenting paragraphs, complete sentences, etc. Many are unable to read aloud. (please note, she is also rather distressed with my terrible spelling).There are two high schools in Austin currently rated as unacceptable. Hers is not one. We have very big problems in our educational system.

4. Austin is a service industry town. Some work in government, some in business, but the vast majority here is washing dishes and waiting on tables. Those jobs do not provide health care. The charity clinics here in town literally have lines out the door with folks sitting on the curb filling out paperwork. It took a friend of mine 18 months to get a hernia fixed (and keep in mind that he was in a phd program at UT having to work as an intern. He does cancer research now). There is a problem there.

5. Our social services are in an advanced state of decay - health care, education, etc. (I mean, seriously, Texas can't even process food stamps in time. We are at risk of losing federal funds!) Is there a right way to fix them? I don't know. I know it is difficult when the conversation is muddled by extremist forms of partisan talk, private interest, and just plain old argumentive for the joy of argueing personalities. I simply find it hard to believe that what I am witnessing is this countrys best effort to solve some incredabily large problems.

[AmandaRose]

well i think rationality just flew out the window in this debate... are we seriously looking at Obama as the antichrist now??? good Lord.

and longgg before he got into office, thats nothing new. Wonder why you would defend ones Muslim faith, yet would knock another, of a Christian belief, to be irrational. :eyebrow:

[AmandaRose]

Speaking only for myself, not anymore than I would a copy of Aesop's Fables, or the works of the Grimm's Brothers (though I do find the Bible to be waaayy creepier, not to mention more delightfully sick & twisted:biggrin2:).
Why I'd swear it on a Bible:wink2:.

Yes sir you will, in any courtroom, your hand will go right on that Bible! whether you like it or not. :tongue:

Truth is stranger than fiction, you got that right.

[Moderator]

From Wiki:

Physically placing ones hand on a Bible and swearing an oath is not required nor was it ever legally enforceable. The court gives those giving testimony the option of "swearing an oath" or making an affirmation to tell the truth as to the best of their knowledge.

[devious1]

i don't knock anyone's beliefs, whether faith-based or not, when they are rational. proclaiming Obama to be the antichrist is not rational. that is a ridiculous, extremist view, just like declaring jihad on all religions other than ones' own is an extremist view that does not represent the whole of the faith or those that follow it. in fact i believe the "Obama is the antichrist" campaign began from the Christian front when Obama was proclaiming that he would allow gays to get married (which he hasn't done and more than likely won't do)... the Christian extremists see homosexuality and gays in general to be abominations and that America is being "punished by God" for accepting homosexuality... coincidence??? i think not. i know a good smear campaign when i see one.

[AmandaRose]

i don't knock anyone's beliefs, whether faith-based or not, when they are rational. proclaiming Obama to be the antichrist is not rational. that is a ridiculous, extremist view, just like declaring jihad on all religions other than ones' own is an extremist view that does not represent the whole of the faith or those that follow it. in fact i believe the "Obama is the antichrist" campaign began from the Christian front when Obama was proclaiming that he would allow gays to get married (which he hasn't done and more than likely won't do)... the Christian extremists see homosexuality and gays in general to be abominations and that America is being "punished by God" for accepting homosexuality... coincidence??? i think not. i know a good smear campaign when i see one.

no one has "proclaimed" him to be the antichrist. Characteristics are worthy of attention though for any who believe this will come to pass.

[Moderator]

The video is very careful to sidestep actually saying that. I'm sure they're aware of slander and libel laws. The implication is definitely there, though. If someone wanted to really take the time, they could probably use the same possibilities to show that Jesus was the anti-Christ. Yes, I agree that's ridiculous--on both counts IMO.

[devious1]

and longgg before he got into office, thats nothing new. Wonder why you would defend ones Muslim faith, yet would knock another, of a Christian belief, to be irrational. :eyebrow:i'm kinda curious, since you claim this to be a Christian belief, does that make the many Christians who don't believe this at all "bad" Christians???

[Tery]

Obama is not "trashing the country" nor is he going around saying it is bad or wrong. What he is doing is apologizing for mistakes made by the previous administration's cowboy diplomacy. Adults apologize for mistakes, learn from them and attempt to fix them. Small children pout and say, "I wasn't wrong... YOU were!"

Which tactic do you think makes for better foreign relations? :eyebrow:

I am going to reiterate because it's important: Not all of the criticism of the President is due to racism. Please don't apply false logic to the situation. One does not equal all, nor does a few. But to deny that some people who denigrate Obama are racist is to be naive or ignorant. To allow that handful to dominate debate is to divert our attention away from the real problems we face. I mean, do Beck and Limbaugh have any plans to help or are they just dragging down political discourse and drawing attention from what we need to do? I think we all know the answer to that one....

[w666]

George Carlin says it so eloquently.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaa9iw85tW8

(Warning for the politically correct....George may use one or more of the 7 words during this bit)

[Tery]

Um... just a little dose of reality here.... the term "anti-Christ" does not even appear in Revelation. ;)

[AmandaRose]

The video is very careful to sidestep actually saying that. I'm sure they're aware of slander and libel laws. The implication is definitely there, though. If someone wanted to really take the time, they could probably use the same possibilities to show that Jesus was the anti-Christ. Yes, I agree that's ridiculous--on both counts IMO.


Only time can tell these things. My own personal opinion was not drawn from this video, but by having read the Left Behind Series of books, years ago, before there was an Obama in our lives.

[dw1345]

Tery, I know you love and support Obama, and lets just say I respect your opinions though I disagree with them. I wont use words like sick or insulting with regard to what you say and nothing you can post is going to rile me up about it.

Obama is embarrassing a great deal of his supporters about now, I know hes embarrassing the US, out here apologizing for our country being so sh!tty on this global tour of his, then is suprized that the Olympics 'wont' be held here?

Yes We Can. then Olympic Committee said... 'No, You Can't!. :eek2:

You do know that President Bush met with the Olympic Committee and strongly urged Chicago's bid when he was in office, right? Chicago not being selected wasn't a loss for Obama, it was a loss for our country. How you can be enthusiastic over that, I have no idea.

[AmandaRose]

i'm kinda curious, since you claim this to be a Christian belief, does that make the many Christians who don't believe this at all "bad" Christians???

In our society people pick and choose what they want to believe as they please, whatever suits them and their lifestyle, I would think that one should believe it all, if any part of it when it comes to the Bible but no I don't judge people like that, sweetie. :wink2:

[AmandaRose]

You do know that President Bush met with the Olympic Committee and strongly urged Chicago's bid when he was in office, right? Chicago not being selected wasn't a loss for Obama, it was a loss for our country. How you can be enthusiastic over that, I have no idea.



Well, he is repeatedly doing things Bush did Im hearing. There was a count of how many 'I, me, and my' were in the Obama/Oprah speeches to the committee are you familiar with? Seems it was more about 'them' and personal victory for their hometown, the most.

[Nero]

Only time can tell these things. My own personal opinion was not drawn from this video, but by having read the Left Behind Series of books, years ago, before there was an Obama in our lives.

again... a fictional pop story based on loose interpretation at best of the most symbolic and unknown book in the whole thing! for crying out loud the same stuff was said about Bush, and practically everyone before him... there's always a reason if you look for it.

will you even feel bad about saying that about him in 4/8 years when his term/s are over and nothing's happened?

this is going way off topic but if, according to you, Revelations is prophecy told to John by God, and youre translation is right... what makes you think the Club of Christians could do anything to stop it anyways? Slandering Obama into not winning a 2nd term gives manking a little longer to breathe easy, until the next liberal we don't like comes along?

Is there really a mindset that you can Schwarzzeneger it up against whoever happens to be labeled as the Antichrist this year and thus keep the "End of Days" from happening? Because, if that is true, then man can stop God's "plan" and therefore is NOT god, and man is a more powerful deity am I right?

[Todash]

wow, and a thread like this and drew didn't start it!! :)

I know, right? He's slacking. I'm sure he'll be back in form soon, though.

Re this topic: The day there is a non-Caucasian president elected and that passes without comment is the day when racism is no longer a powerful force in politics. To expect that the first black US president would not encounter racist attitudes, however subtly, is more than a bit naive. In 1957, a mere four years before Obama was born, President Eisenhower had to use the US Army to enforce the US Supreme Court's Brown v. Board desegregation order. When Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1968, Obama was already six years old. Officially sanctioned racism is gone; the dinner table variety is going; the internal racism inside many of us will probably hang on for a while.

To deduce from that that all Obama detractors are racist, however, is both wrong-headed and unfair. For some time, presidential votes have been about evenly split, and a lot of people in this country are not Democrats. To them, having to submit to any Democratic president for four to eight years is going to taste a lot like a turd sandwich.

[devious1]

Well, he is repeatedly doing things Bush did Im hearing. There was a count of how many 'I, me, and my' were in the Obama/Oprah speeches to the committee are you familiar with? Seems it was more about 'them' and personal victory for their hometown, the most.it cracks me up that Republicans are using this as an argument against Obama. so tell me if i have this clear... when Bush did things like allow wiretapping and spying on citizens, it was something that had to be done and he made the right decision to do it. but when Obama decides to allow the wiretapping to continue he gets criticized for it? isn't he doing what you wanted to be done in the first place??? last year, when Bush was President, he was the great leader. now, it's "well Obama's just like Bush, let's get rid of him..." LOL. politics is funny sometimes... :laugh:

maybe in Obama's and Oprah's eyes getting the Olympics was more about them and their personal victory, but the fact that the city lost out is still a loss to the city and its people, not just Oprah and Obama. but maybe that's the main difference here. a lot of people who voted for Obama are disappointed in some of his policies and the fact that the "change" he promised isn't coming in quite the package they thought it would. but they still hold out hope that he will do great things and make a difference during his presidency. but a lot of people who didn't vote for him, on the other hand, root for him to fail and almost seem to take pleasure in his failures. i don't really see how that helps the country at all.

[Goodlovin]

Stereotypes amuse me when people actually fit the stereotype.

Why am I not shocked to find that anyone from Texas, or Georgia or a directional Carolina has the exact viewpoints most in this country would expect them to have.

My favorites are the lady finding a black guy who can defend the Confederate Flag and the excellent investigator who broke the story here on skmb.com that Obama has a fake birth certificate.

:laugh:

[Terry B]

it cracks me up that Republicans are using this as an argument against Obama. so tell me if i have this clear... when Bush did things like allow wiretapping and spying on citizens, it was something that had to be done and he made the right decision to do it. but when Obama decides to allow the wiretapping to continue he gets criticized for it? isn't he doing what you wanted to be done in the first place??? last year, when Bush was President, he was the great leader. now, it's "well Obama's just like Bush, let's get rid of him..." LOL. politics is funny sometimes... :laugh:

maybe in Obama's and Oprah's eyes getting the Olympics was more about them and their personal victory, but the fact that the city lost out is still a loss to the city and its people, not just Oprah and Obama. but maybe that's the main difference here. a lot of people who voted for Obama are disappointed in some of his policies and the fact that the "change" he promised isn't coming in quite the package they thought it would. but they still hold out hope that he will do great things and make a difference during his presidency. but a lot of people who didn't vote for him, on the other hand, root for him to fail and almost seem to take pleasure in his failures. i don't really see how that helps the country at all.

I'm not disappointed. Anyone who thought Obama could fix 8 years of ruination in 6 months to a year is a fool. Your comments are well said Devious.

[Rhett]

Re this topic: The day there is a non-Caucasian president elected and that passes without comment is the day when racism is no longer a powerful force in politics. To expect that the first black US president would not encounter racist attitudes, however subtly, is more than a bit naive. In 1957, a mere four years before Obama was born, President Eisenhower had to use the US Army to enforce the US Supreme Court's Brown v. Board desegregation order. When Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1968, Obama was already six years old. Officially sanctioned racism is gone; the dinner table variety is going; the internal racism inside many of us will probably hang on for a while.

Well Said!!!

[Tery]

devious... come on!!! Don't you know the rule??

It's Okay If You Are A Republican.

That explains a lot, doesn't it? ;)

[AmandaRose]

will you even feel bad about saying that about him in 4/8 years when his term/s are over and nothing's happened?




NO. absolutely not. Why would I feel bad? You can analyze and speculate all over that antichrist stuff all you want, have fun. :laugh:

[AmandaRose]

it cracks me up that Republicans are using this as an argument against Obama. so tell me if i have this clear... when Bush did things like allow wiretapping and spying on citizens, it was something that had to be done and he made the right decision to do it. but when Obama decides to allow the wiretapping to continue he gets criticized for it? isn't he doing what you wanted to be done in the first place??? last year, when Bush was President, he was the great leader. now, it's "well Obama's just like Bush, let's get rid of him..." LOL. politics is funny sometimes... :laugh:

maybe in Obama's and Oprah's eyes getting the Olympics was more about them and their personal victory, but the fact that the city lost out is still a loss to the city and its people, not just Oprah and Obama. but maybe that's the main difference here. a lot of people who voted for Obama are disappointed in some of his policies and the fact that the "change" he promised isn't coming in quite the package they thought it would. but they still hold out hope that he will do great things and make a difference during his presidency. but a lot of people who didn't vote for him, on the other hand, root for him to fail and almost seem to take pleasure in his failures. i don't really see how that helps the country at all.

ooo dev,

I didnt give a rats asss about President Bush either! as a matter of fact, I dont give a dam about politics! but its sad to see so many people charmed, by someone you and me had agreed, is a jackass. :oo:

okay, Im gonna have to come over there.

[AmandaRose]

Stereotypes amuse me when people actually fit the stereotype.

Why am I not shocked to find that anyone from Texas, or Georgia or a directional Carolina has the exact viewpoints most in this country would expect them to have.

My favorites are the lady finding a black guy who can defend the Confederate Flag and the excellent investigator who broke the story here on skmb.com that Obama has a fake birth certificate.

:laugh:

and Why am I not shocked that *this* comment is from someone from CHICAGO? :laugh:

thanksss Sugar pie :wink2:

[scratchesass]

I'm not disappointed. Anyone who thought Obama could fix 8 years of ruination in 6 months to a year is a fool. Your comments are well said Devious.



I could say the same about anyone who thinks that it's only 8 years of ruination. The 8 before that and the 4 prior to that 8 weren't very helpful....

The 8 before that 4 were pretty good but then we had the 18 prior to those 8.

And what am I saying here, class?

here's a hint. Only one president since JFK has had a really good record. Reagan. You can argue that the country did have a prosperous year or two under Slick Willy, but, I'd say the .com bubble that went all kerpluey erased ALL of his gains.

And technically, the Dow, S&P, and the Nasdaq all hit there record highs under Ol' Retardicus (as I like to call Bush II).


So there is an argument that Bush II was a GREAT president (who, incidentally, removed the deadliest and most dispicable leader since Der Fuhrer....) who made this country a whole ton of 'squeezin' green'.

But I ramble and digress........ Back to what's important.....

DOWN WITH DISNEY!!!!DOWN WITH DISNEY!!!!DOWN WITH DISNEY!!!!

[scratchesass]

Oh, and by the way, for the record, I think Ol' Giveeverybodysomemorecash (as I fondly call our current President) has some really nice ideas. Socialism is a nice concept.

it really is.... who wouldn't support everyone having enough?

But, a famous lady once said
"They [socialists] always run out of other people's money."

And if Ol' Giveeverybodysomemorecash ain't a socialist at heart, then I'm the next American Idol.....

[Todash]

but a lot of people who didn't vote for him, on the other hand, root for him to fail and almost seem to take pleasure in his failures. i don't really see how that helps the country at all.
That actually is VERY strange. As angry as people were at Bush, I never heard "hahaha, his policies are failing." It was more like "$#*%@, his policies are failing and we're so mad about it!"

Schadenfreude is a German word that means taking pleasure from watching someone else's suffering, a concept that I have personally always found disturbingly barbaric. But taking pleasure from watching one's own suffering seems to me to be ... well, not very bright.

[Bluey Lunger]

and I do also find the similarities between this man and the Left Behind series Nicolae Carpathia ... quite eerie. Charming, Handsome, Loved the world over, Worldy minded, Global intentions, Ultra Maximum security, Praised and glorified, etc. etc. etc. One World order. and media, omg, talkin sh!t on all these latenight talkshows....? Wonder why we hasnt hit Limbaugh yet.



hi AmandaRose. i was amused by the same analogy. and ole nicolae has that bumbling sidekick and vp biden has fit that bill. after awhile, conformity begins to be scary, and the love and adoration for obama seemed like something scripted in revelation, especially when so many were so enamored of him while i was left feeling like a ten o'clock person. "we live in the greatest country on earth" the guy tells the crowd. "let's change it." yeah, real intelligent. the crowd swoons. then a man on the street is interviewd and he's glad that obama is going to pay for his house that he's almost defaulted on.

the guy had his plane painted with the change symbol, or whatever that thingy was 'posed to be. and what was that song the school children were 'posed to sing? then we see that reverend there at the all-illinois church of the modern christ and nary a peep, nary a doubt from his supporters. this coming in a day when to profess one's belief in christ is to call down the wrath of the jub jub birds.

so when one takes all the events to do w/obama (reagan had unemployment numbers such as obama is experiencing and the media portrayed that scene in an entirely different way) the nicolae carpathia analogy works for me.



in the end, though, it's a case of infinite chutzpah to believe that the world hinges on turns here in the u.s. of a.

[Terry B]

I could say the same about anyone who thinks that it's only 8 years of ruination. The 8 before that and the 4 prior to that 8 weren't very helpful....

The 8 before that 4 were pretty good but then we had the 18 prior to those 8.

And what am I saying here, class?

here's a hint. Only one president since JFK has had a really good record. Reagan. You can argue that the country did have a prosperous year or two under Slick Willy, but, I'd say the .com bubble that went all kerpluey erased ALL of his gains.

And technically, the Dow, S&P, and the Nasdaq all hit there record highs under Ol' Retardicus (as I like to call Bush II).


So there is an argument that Bush II was a GREAT president (who, incidentally, removed the deadliest and most dispicable leader since Der Fuhrer....) who made this country a whole ton of 'squeezin' green'.

But I ramble and digress........ Back to what's important.....

DOWN WITH DISNEY!!!!DOWN WITH DISNEY!!!!DOWN WITH DISNEY!!!!

Ronald Reagan - the President who opposed the research to look for a cure for Alzhiemer's. DUH!

[rjt65]

Dang peeps----- here is the issue people need to stop STOP saying Republican this Democrats that etc..., not stereotype.

We can judge people and presidents on what they say and what they do, the promises they made, and if they do not deliver on promises maybe a reason why?-- of course comparisons will be made...

For me I think Obama needs more time to see what was done, in 2 years lets say but the pre-election rhetoric is proved yet once again to be Bull Sh!@#$%T

Are our troops home? Seems more are heading to Afghanistan?
Guantanamo bay closed Nooooooooo
Dev u bring up the patriot act--despicable by bush it was said --so why is the promise to eradicate that forgotten?
Limits on executive powers
etc...

gotta say this sat night live opening video hits home that it appears the liberals may be more peeved at Obama than the repubs and kudos to sat nite live for getting on everyone in a funny matter-- I actually liked the madonna lady ga ga video beter so there! ;-) i would let it run to that! haah suppossed fight between these 2.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/episodes/?vid=1163334#vid=1163334

So yah i think Obama has been better for international perception, is a better speaker than Bush, but like others his record will tell the tale. He has both majorities in Congress and Senate why the inaction?

I really would like to see people answer this inaction comment?
















it cracks me up that Republicans are using this as an argument against Obama. so tell me if i have this clear... when Bush did things like allow wiretapping and spying on citizens, it was something that had to be done and he made the right decision to do it. but when Obama decides to allow the wiretapping to continue he gets criticized for it? isn't he doing what you wanted to be done in the first place??? last year, when Bush was President, he was the great leader. now, it's "well Obama's just like Bush, let's get rid of him..." LOL. politics is funny sometimes... :laugh:

maybe in Obama's and Oprah's eyes getting the Olympics was more about them and their personal victory, but the fact that the city lost out is still a loss to the city and its people, not just Oprah and Obama. but maybe that's the main difference here. a lot of people who voted for Obama are disappointed in some of his policies and the fact that the "change" he promised isn't coming in quite the package they thought it would. but they still hold out hope that he will do great things and make a difference during his presidency. but a lot of people who didn't vote for him, on the other hand, root for him to fail and almost seem to take pleasure in his failures. i don't really see how that helps the country at all.

[devious1]

Bluey, the difference between the unemployment numbers during Reagan's presidency and Obama's is that the unemployment rate under Reagan went up directly as a result of his policies. the current economic crisis America is going through cannot be blamed on Obama, but it is his responsibility now to fix it. if he doesn't, and those numbers continue to go up, then you can point a finger of blame at him. doing so now shows the eagerness some people have to make him a scapegoat for all the problems in America.

and to that point again... simply saying there are things in America that need to be changed does not mean he doesn't think it's a great country, or even the greatest country, but he knows there are problems that need to be fixed and he acknowledges that. i mean, do you honestly believe your country is the greatest just because it is??? America earned the reputation of being the greatest country in the world, it didn't just happen. if you don't fight to keep it that way, it won't be true for much longer. again, whether or not you think his policies will make the country better is up for debate, but i'm tired of politicians pretending everything is great with America, and acting like they can do no wrong. i'm glad someone is acknowledging these problems instead of ignoring them, which seems to be the status quo with most politicians.

[devious1]

ooo dev,

I didnt give a rats asss about President Bush either! as a matter of fact, I dont give a dam about politics! but its sad to see so many people charmed, by someone you and me had agreed, is a jackass. :oo:

okay, Im gonna have to come over there.i never said you personally did give a rat's ass about Bush, but the Republican party sure did. but now they are out there with that argument, "it's like Bush all over again, let's get rid of him..." and it amuses me to no end that for the last 8 years he was their golden boy, and now that he's out of office, he's the measuring stick of a bad president.

the thing is... i am not an Obama supporter. my feelings are that he is a pure politician, the type that will do or say anything to get elected, and then follow his own personal agenda once he has the power. but i do not hope for his downfall, or enjoy seeing him fail. i want him to succeed, because, as he is the most powerful man on the planet, his potential failures could have disastrous effects on the entire world, just like Bush's. i never enjoyed seeing him fail either, or hoped for him to fall on his face. it's sad to me that so many people want to see the President fail, simply so they can have the thrill of pointing the finger and saying "see? we were right!!!"

[devious1]

Dang peeps----- here is the issue people need to stop STOP saying Republican this Democrats that etc..., not stereotype.

We can judge people and presidents on what they say and what they do, the promises they made, and if they do not deliver on promises maybe a reason why?-- of course comparisons will be made...

For me I think Obama needs more time to see what was done, in 2 years lets say but the pre-election rhetoric is proved yet once again to be Bull Sh!@#$%T

Are our troops home? Seems more are heading to Afghanistan?
Guantanamo bay closed Nooooooooo
Dev u bring up the patriot act--despicable by bush it was said --so why is the promise to eradicate that forgotten?
Limits on executive powers
etc...

gotta say this sat night live opening video hits home that it appears the liberals may be more peeved at Obama than the repubs and kudos to sat nite live for getting on everyone in a funny matter-- I actually liked the madonna lady ga ga video beter so there! ;-) i would let it run to that! haah suppossed fight between these 2.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/episodes/?vid=1163334#vid=1163334

So yah i think Obama has been better for international perception, is a better speaker than Bush, but like others his record will tell the tale. He has both majorities in Congress and Senate why the inaction?

I really would like to see people answer this inaction comment?i condemn Obama for allowing the wiretap practice to continue. it was wrong when Bush did it and it's wrong to continue it now. i just have to laugh at the hypocrisy in the republican party, that they are using this as a tactic against him when it's a policy they wanted in the first place.

as for Guantanamo Bay... i blame both parties for the failure to shut it down. it's not as though he didn't try, but these prisoners aren't being released, they need to stand trial. someone has to take them in. but none of the Republican or Democratic senators/representatives wanted to take the prisoners. i understand this tactic from the Republican point of view (if we don't take the prisoners he won't have anywhere to put them and he'll have to keep them there, we can use that against him) but for the Democrats to pull that stunt as well kind of surprised me. so i don't blame him for Guantanamo. as for what he is doing with the troops... big mistake. send them home already. people didn't vote for a diversion of troops to Afghanistan, they voted to bring them home.

my big problem is that so many people made the decision as to whether they thought he would be a good or bad President before he ever took office and made a single executive decision. nothing will change these people's minds, since they had them made up long before any action was taken. i may not be a supporter or "fan" of Obama but i judge him on a case by case basis and i always hope for the best. rooting for him to fail does nothing to help the country. following him with blind faith and praising his every move does nothing to help either.

[PatInTheHat]

I could say the same about anyone who thinks that it's only 8 years of ruination. The 8 before that and the 4 prior to that 8 weren't very helpful....

The 8 before that 4 were pretty good but then we had the 18 prior to those 8.

And what am I saying here, class?

here's a hint. Only one president since JFK has had a really good record. Reagan. You can argue that the country did have a prosperous year or two under Slick Willy, but, I'd say the .com bubble that went all kerpluey erased ALL of his gains.

And technically, the Dow, S&P, and the Nasdaq all hit there record highs under Ol' Retardicus (as I like to call Bush II).


So there is an argument that Bush II was a GREAT president (who, incidentally, removed the deadliest and most dispicable leader since Der Fuhrer....) who made this country a whole ton of 'squeezin' green'.

But I ramble and digress........ Back to what's important.....

DOWN WITH DISNEY!!!!DOWN WITH DISNEY!!!!DOWN WITH DISNEY!!!!

Going back around twenty years ya say?
Got some minor updates for you, this all really started with Reagan.
I'm talking the dependency on foreign oil, our deep unsettling involvement in the middle east, the incorporation of America, deregulating of..well, practically everything that screws the middle lower classes for the benefit of Wall Street and the downfall of actual small businesses, and most of the Mom & Pops that made this joint what it once was, by flat out giving legislative powers directly to the big special interest lobbiests....who needs the house & senate if ya got a board of directors?
This is Reagan's legacy..oh I can go on, yes I can yes I can.

And this sure ain't an uneducated opinion (no matter how uneducated I happen to be).
It's historically factual right down to the actual scoffing of any need for renewable energy, with the arrogant removal of solar panels (I'll give you they were symbolic, but what is America if not symbolically enamored) on the White House (installed by the way, by the man who predicted much of this pickle we're in, Jimmy Carter), the big oil & coal lobby couldn't have been happier..well except perhaps some other countries that were more than happy to accommodate start-up companies specializing in developing renewable energy, after Bonzo's buddy Ronnie took away their tax breaks and sent 'em packing...we are soooo behind the bubble..thanks Ron!
Hmm, and Reagan was the big champion of small business and tax breaks they say..not hardly.
Reagan himself may have had good intentions, but ya know what they say 'bout them there "good intentions".
What a Clustermucked for America puppet show that administartion was..now that was an opinion..just barely.
Even I didn't think it could get much worse...gee whiz the nightmare just doesn't seem to end:down:.

We can save ex head CIA spook George the first as his VP , who some how actually got away with saying he "was out of the loop" (and that was oddly good enough at the hearings..hmmm) during the Iran/Contra-Noriega/CIA/Cocaine fiasco for another time, but give it some thought as to exactly how long this reign of crap has been going on..and on..and on.
(if this was a bad movie, "B Movie" couldn't properly give it justice..what with a cast including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Negroponte, Regan, The Saudi Oil Royals (weren't they Bin Ladens favorite hometown baseball team at one time..wonder what changed that?)...I'm sure I forgot many.
Holy smoke, the Ronnie Reality just keeps on giving...well, not to us citizens, unless of course your eligible for that big time corporate welfare that administration saw fit to perfect..grrrrr, oh that damn socialism:grr:!)

Do you really believe that Saddam Hussein was the worlds worst despot since Hitler?
Well okey dokey, but personally, I don't think he's even in the top five...maybe in the mid-teens..maybe, but in my lifetime, probably no more than tenth tops:wink2:.

[rjt65]

i may not be a supporter or "fan" of Obama but i judge him on a case by case basis and i always hope for the best. rooting for him to fail does nothing to help the country. following him with blind faith and praising his every move does nothing to help either.

Exactly my point! So now who agrees! judge on the actions and results not our wants or perceptions or party or other BS labels we apply to ourselves.

And i agree with both Bush and Obama some people getting off track and just rooting for failure due to hate? or whatever--- not right


I want success for the country-world etc....

I still am interested for some of our liberal members to comment on the lack of promised action by Obama? I have seen in the news liberals being more upset than repubs....

cheers

[SusanNorton]

Is it just me, or is anyone else kind of tired of divisive topics? I know some people seem to thrive on this kind of thing, but it just wears me out.

:eek2: I'll show myself out, now.

[PatInTheHat]

I still am interested for some of our liberal members to comment on the lack of promised action by Obama? I have seen in the news liberals being more upset than repubs....

cheers

Because as much as I admit it pains me to say, perhaps there is such a thing as too much pragmatism...this "bridge building" and "reaching across the aisle" only works if there's someone on the other side doing the same...personally, I wanted him to cram bridges (and anything else bigger than a beachball) down their throats...other orifices would suit me right down to the ground as well..hey, I'm kinda rather pragmatic myself:biggrin2:.
Okay, so I won't pretend to be a fan of anything republican, but don't think for a minute I'm a democrat fan either (believe it or not, I'm not really that great a liberal, but I'm sooo learning...simple survival dictates I must..I don't think I'm alone here).
I wrote here back pre-election in my belief, how if elected, the president's own party will sure as the sun will rise, totally :zip: #@* up...yeah I know, recent history predicts that's not much of a stretch now is it?

Cowards vs. pusses...cry babies vs. whiners...deregulate me out of all my money vs. regulate me out of most of my chosen occupations...loop hole exploiters vs. loop hole providers...trying to get us all killed for profit & pride by any means necessary, ends justify the means thinking vs. trying to surround the world in baby proofed bubble wrap without any necessary meaning or thinking about the ends..now that's the one that pushes me right over the top every time.
I'm just not an ends justify the means thinking kind of guy, and while I'm not all that a warm and fuzzy kumbaya kind a fella, it sure beats the hell outta the alternative I believe.

Neither party is guilty of any real BIG picture thinking for the last thirty years, and while they're both owned by K & Wall St., one party however, is flat out owned lock(ed & loaded), (composite) stock & (gun) barrel...not my personal pachyderm size cup 'o tea.
Any attempted arguement to that last statement is absolutey futile, but by all means, I'd simply :love: someone to try and sway me...but best do your homework 'cause I've been livin' the uhh, dream and payin' rather close attention for these last thirty unthinking years:wink2:.

At least this president is attempting to put some that old fashioned stuff back on the table, and who knows, just maybe this thinking thang will catch on again...or uhh, not:wink2:.

[Terry B]

Exactly my point! So now who agrees! judge on the actions and results not our wants or perceptions or party or other BS labels we apply to ourselves.

And i agree with both Bush and Obama some people getting off track and just rooting for failure due to hate? or whatever--- not right


I want success for the country-world etc....

I still am interested for some of our liberal members to comment on the lack of promised action by Obama? I have seen in the news liberals being more upset than repubs....

cheers

OK - I'm about as liberal as they get and I will repeat an earlier statement. Only a fool believes that 6 months to a year is enough time to do anything, especially when the other side of the aisle is doing anything and everything to stifle what progress there may be. I'm also old enough to know that what you hear in campaign speeches isn't the way of the world. The ONLY thing I wish Obama had done differently is - he should have taken his first year to ONLY handle the financial mess left by his predecessor THEN, after careful consideration and a lot of research, tackle the health care problem. He's just trying to tackle too many issues at one time and no mortal man can do that. Besides - if Obama were to try to do all the "promised action", what good would it do with all the opposition he gets from the "other" side? When you have a group of legislators (and I wonder who they are) working against you no matter what the issue is, you are doomed to fail. It's that simple. And that is what they want. I just hope no one gets hurt while the Republicans are having their petty playground arguments.

[PatInTheHat]

I know some people seem to thrive on this kind of thing


Awww shucks:blush:.

:biggrin2::wink2:

[AmandaRose]

first of all... Im wondering if anyone here has received this letter, portions Im posting.. from the Man himself, as my mother, a Senior Citizen, did, not long after he raised Medicare premiums.... and it appeared sooo personalized... as from President Barack Obama himself!

second, I just want to say if people reallyyy want to show their love and support for him, why not put their money where their mouth is in these trying and tumultous times, what better way? Hes asking...

Dear Friend,

There are times in the life of our nation when America's course can only be set by the concerted effort of citizens determined to pull our country through.

This is one of those times -and your personal involvement in moving America forward is absolutely essential.

As you know, we have put in place a comprehensive strategy designed to attack America,s economic crisis on all fronts. It;s a strategy to create jobs, to help responsible homeowners, to start lending and to grow our economy over the long term. And we are beginning to see signs of progress.

But, let's be clear with one another. We are facing extraordinary challenges and sustained effort will help meet them.

I have acted on the economy, health care, energy and education with the knowledge that a "business as usual" approach will not serve our nation.

Now, you and I must act with the understanding that it will take exceptional energy and effort to mobilize public support for our plans.

That's why I am urging you to make decision right now to support initiative being put together by the Democratic Party.

Organizing for America is a coming together of people from every corner of our nation. Folks who understand just how much is at stake are working side-by-side and asking "What can I do to lift America up?"

(Here is where I am skipping some paragraphs)



Let me be clear:This initiative is essential to our efforts to renew America. And your personal participation and financial support are absolutelycriticial to it;s success.

I urge you to act now by making a contribution of $25, $35 or even $50 tothe Democratic National Committee in support of Organizing for America. Thank you so much for standing with me at this most crucial moment.



Sincerely,

Barack Obama
President

[Todash]

OK - I'm about as liberal as they get and I will repeat an earlier statement. Only a fool believes that 6 months to a year is enough time to do anything, especially when the other side of the aisle is doing anything and everything to stifle what progress there may be. I'm also old enough to know that what you hear in campaign speeches isn't the way of the world. The ONLY thing I wish Obama had done differently is - he should have taken his first year to ONLY handle the financial mess left by his predecessor THEN, after careful consideration and a lot of research, tackle the health care problem. He's just trying to tackle too many issues at one time and no mortal man can do that. Besides - if Obama were to try to do all the "promised action", what good would it do with all the opposition he gets from the "other" side? When you have a group of legislators (and I wonder who they are) working against you no matter what the issue is, you are doomed to fail. It's that simple. And that is what they want. I just hope no one gets hurt while the Republicans are having their petty playground arguments.It's worth remembering that a US president, any US president, cannot push legislation through Congress. He may suggest it, even write it, but he cannot directly impact whether it is passed. The only thing he can do, really, is veto legislation that he does not want. That's basic elementary school stuff, but a lot of people seem to forget that in the US, the president's power is nowhere close to unlimited.

[themadone06]

I just hope no one gets hurt while the Republicans are having their petty playground arguments.


Sorry, but how is that any different from what the Democrats did for the last four years of Bush's presidency? Republicans are acting no different then the Democrats did the last four years. The only differences is that the media loves Obama, and they hated Bush. Who ever the media picks becomes the winner (i.e the last two elections... of course I still think John Kerry could the presidency to a rotting corpse).

I guess all I'm saying is that you can not complain about playground petty politics just because your party (Democrats) is in office. They were the minority in the playground who were throwing stones before Obama.

[AmandaRose]

hi AmandaRose. i was amused by the same analogy. and ole nicolae has that bumbling sidekick and vp biden has fit that bill. after awhile, conformity begins to be scary, and the love and adoration for obama seemed like something scripted in revelation, especially when so many were so enamored of him while i was left feeling like a ten o'clock person. "we live in the greatest country on earth" the guy tells the crowd. "let's change it." yeah, real intelligent. the crowd swoons. then a man on the street is interviewd and he's glad that obama is going to pay for his house that he's almost defaulted on.

the guy had his plane painted with the change symbol, or whatever that thingy was 'posed to be. and what was that song the school children were 'posed to sing? then we see that reverend there at the all-illinois church of the modern christ and nary a peep, nary a doubt from his supporters. this coming in a day when to profess one's belief in christ is to call down the wrath of the jub jub birds.

so when one takes all the events to do w/obama (reagan had unemployment numbers such as obama is experiencing and the media portrayed that scene in an entirely different way) the nicolae carpathia analogy works for me.



in the end, though, it's a case of infinite chutzpah to believe that the world hinges on turns here in the u.s. of a.

All very well said Blue. :smile2: and let us not forget the massive amout of disbelievers, in that story.

People who consider this to be so ridiculous might consider how, Revelations, though interpreted again and again by different, blah blah, how something written had seemed so completely impossible to so many people for sooo many years ... not to mention in the age it was written, and yet today, we know Exactly 'How' the 'Whole world' would 'See' something like this...

... the two Witnesses in the streets of Israel, whose death will be public for all Jerusalem and the world to see, and then resurrected after 3.5 days, in full view of the whole earth, those on Earth will have heard and understood who these two individuals are.

... dont we?.

[Tery]

I still am interested for some of our liberal members to comment on the lack of promised action by Obama? I have seen in the news liberals being more upset than repubs....

Am I completely happy with Obama at this point? Nope. I don't think he's been focused enough. I agree with TerryB that tackling the economy first and foremost would have been a better tack (but, then again, health insurance - or lack thereof - has a huge impact on the economy). I also agree that this whole bipartisan thing has seen enough airtime; the Reps obviously have no intention of playing nice so to heck with them. The Congress and Pres. have a mandate from the people. I wish they'd get busy on addressing it instead of kowtowing to the lobbyists and trying to make nice with the Reps (after all, they never gave a damn about the Dems when they were in power). Enough of the obstructionism.

Lewis Black has put it quite well re; the relationship of Dems and Reps in DC: It's like the Reps fart and the Dems say "oh let me smell that." I've had enough of wimpy Dems!!

[scratchesass]

The answer to 2009 may be 1776......

After all, isn't it the duty of the People to fire the government whan the government can no longer serve the People?

I see no real winners in Washington. I'm sure there are some there, but, they are silenced, mocked, and ridiculed by the louder, self serving majority who are on the TV telling us how it's gonna be.

The People won't quit electing idiots because the idiots are firmly entrenched in their roles.

Getting rid of one here and there doesn't help. The greed and hypocrisy in DC is contagious, affects all who "serve" there.

After I sue Disney, I'll start a revolution maybe.......

[thymeoperator]

Obama is embarrassing a great deal of his supporters about now, I know hes embarrassing the US, out here apologizing for our country being so sh!tty on this global tour of his


as a former american now living in england, while i wouldn't say people should be apologising for their country being 'so ******' as you say, because that's getting a bit extreme, i would say america (and england too) do owe a lot of the world a huge apology for the bush regime and the war no one voted for and the disaster they've left in the middle east and all the people dying for no reason.

[thymeoperator]

you know, i've had a lot of trouble understanding this mindset as well. is America a perfect country? no. does that mean it's not a great country, because it has areas that need fixing? no. but it seems that in America these days, acknowledging that the country has any problems at all gets you labeled as unpatriotic or anti-American. Obama's plan to raise education levels may not be the right plan (i don't think keeping kids in school longer will help at all) but something should be done. 30 years ago America had the best and brightest students in the world, now they just barely round out the top 20... for a country that was once seen as the greatest in the world, and still claims itself to be, that is a long way to fall. ignoring the problems and pretending America is great in every way does nothing to solve them, and you can't fix what's broken when no one will even acknowledge that it needs fixing in the first place. as Ms. Mod pointed out, Obama has stated that he believes America is a great country but that it can be better. i completely agree with that. now, whether or not his policies will actually make anything better... that's up for debate.

i completely agree with this - i am so sick and tired of being labelled by people as anti-american and a 'traitor' simply because i have moved out of america and can see it from the outside and can see its flaws. it doesn't mean i hate the place or think it's bad, i can just see that it, like ANY OTHER country in the whole world, has room for improvement.

[thymeoperator]

and longgg before he got into office, thats nothing new. Wonder why you would defend ones Muslim faith, yet would knock another, of a Christian belief, to be irrational. :eyebrow:

i don't actually believe calling all kinds of different figureheads in society has anything to do with the Christian faith. i have plenty of Christian friends and a deep respect for them, and i've read enough of the bible to think that views like that are so antithetical to the preachings of Jesus. all Jesus ever wanted was for people to love each other, treat each other with respect, not pass judgments, have full faith in God, etc. i should have thought the story of mary magdalene would teach Christians not to pass judgment over others and call this person and that one the antichrist. i mean...if i were obama, i'd be horrified at such absolutely appalling namecalling - because that's all it is. it has nothing to do with God, it is a really low blow. so i think someone can say they think it's irrational to label everyone 'antichrist' yet still have respect for Christianity - because i don't personally believe they are one and the same thing.

i mean, if you want to get right into it, let's look at this war that's going on right now and the terrorist attacks. i will put my hands up and state that i did not understand this until last week, despite my parents and others trying to explain it to me - but last week i happened to watch a few documentaries on the History channel about the history of Great Britain. i'm originally american so i was never taught this, but i have just learned that after the britons defended the country from the invading vikings, there was a surplus of soliders with no work so the Christian church gathered them all together to convert the middle east - now why you need a military to convert someone to your faith, i don't know - so this was my first actual understanding of what the Crusades were all about. i mean, i actually can't believe i didn't know something as basic as that until now - that just goes to show how bad arizonan history class is, for one thing.

so they went over and brutalised everyone in the middle east until they finally retreated, and to be fair i think the muslims there probably had invaded and pushed out the jews, which is how the jews got pushed out to places like russia (correct me if i'm wrong on this, but bear with me because i'm going somewhere with this), and then centuries later ww2 comes along and the jews are pushed out and destroyed even more, and then they're finally given a safe place to live, they call it israel, and then the palestinians are furious because they were already living there...and then you get decades of terrorist attacks, etc. and 'civil' wars in the middle east, blah blah blah. i'm oversimplifying, i know it. i'm not that well-versed in politics.

my point is, though - we're today paying for outrageous acts of war in the names of multiple religions that happened 1000 years ago! and i didn't even know about it, and i am actually more worldly and informed than a lot of my friends i grew up with in arizona. they just don't tell you these things freely. and when you look at it that way, it just makes you want to scream, when will it stop!? this ISN'T religion - the hate is not part of any of these religions. and you hear people always saying 'what would Jesus do?' well i don't think he'd be waging wars in the name of God. if you ask me, the thing that is truly 'anti Christ' (in terms of its literal linguistic definition) is that sort of mass violence - and it's been presidents like bush who have done that, despite supposedly being Christians.

and if you really think about the meaning of 'antichrist', as in being to the Devil what Jesus is to God...i mean really, think about it. i don't believe in the devil, myself, but if you do then really think about what you're saying - then think about other figures in society, the most obvious of course being someone like adolf hitler. do you REALLY think someone like obama even begins to measure up against someone like hitler in terms of 'qualities that might make someone a valid candidate for the antichrist' ?? i mean, it is an atrociously extreme thing to say about someone - and also, if you really believe in the devil and an antichrist, then surely that must be a powerful severe heavy accusation to make at someone. just stop and listen to yourself. you're free to disagree with all obama's politics if you like, i mean who cares, to each his own, and i don't have a strong view one way or the other about the man's political decisions at the moment either so i really don't care - but to throw around words like 'antichrist'...that REALLY is taking it way way way WAY too far. that is a TERRIBLE thing to bandy around - and, in my view, gives the wrong impression of Christianity.

and i know this message is going to get a lot of backlash from some people, but...whatever, so be it. it really had to be said. if you really believe religions are about the love of God, then people need to STOP FIGHTING in the name of God. all you're doing is destroying the thing you claim to be defending. and i mean...it's GOD. if God is real, he's all powerful and doesn't need defending!

[thymeoperator]

So there is an argument that Bush II was a GREAT president (who, incidentally, removed the deadliest and most dispicable leader since Der Fuhrer....) who made this country a whole ton of 'squeezin' green'.

really?? what about people in the rest of the world? i think we just pick whichever cause is the trendiest for now and ignore the rest of it until it gets 'interesting' again. and i mean as for africa...all you hear is 'the african cause' or something else along those lines - you know i will admit right now i don't even know exactly WHERE in africa these problems are. i could tell you i've heard stuff about zimbabwe and somalia and sudan, but i couldn't really tell you much more than that. i know the ads on tv for things like oxfam and christian aid want us to donate money to help the africans...but i mean africa is HUGE, so what does that even mean, exactly? and some of the students i teach...well i have one 15-year-old girl who inadvertently made a terribly racist statement, despite not being a racist, that i won't repeat, purely because she didn't seem to understand that africa is a gigantic continent made of tons of different cultures and languages, and seemed to be under the impression it was one country with all the same problems, and that EVERYONE in africa is starving with no clean running water. and i'm in ENGLAND, where we have tons of african immigrants here, so really she should know better, and yet a lot of people just don't. and i couldn't explain to her as much as i wish i could. but hey she 'knows' that suddamn hussein bombed the twin towers (please feel irony flowing out of me as i type that). if this is the result of tony blair and george bush being such great leaders, then i'd hate to see what gets classed as a bad leader.

[thymeoperator]

Schadenfreude is a German word that means taking pleasure from watching someone else's suffering, a concept that I have personally always found disturbingly barbaric. But taking pleasure from watching one's own suffering seems to me to be ... well, not very bright.

in english - sadism and massochism.

[Bluey Lunger]

Bluey, the difference between the unemployment numbers during Reagan's presidency and Obama's is that the unemployment rate under Reagan went up directly as a result of his policies. the current economic crisis America is going through cannot be blamed on Obama, but it is his responsibility now to fix it. if he doesn't, and those numbers continue to go up, then you can point a finger of blame at him. doing so now shows the eagerness some people have to make him a scapegoat for all the problems in America.

it remains to be seen whether the stimulus is working or will work. indications are that it isn't. i get a lot of news from the editorial column. some of the things i've read there (most of which i've forgot) tell me that "the numbers" could be used to argue a case against obama. a column by john stossel comes to mind. (but like i said, i've forgotten most of it.)

it always amazes me that all our hopes and failures could possibly be pinned to the tail of the donkey. what i want to know is what happened to the tip of the finger and did arby's pay some hush money? dastardly deeds done dirt cheap! or as my beloved mother would have said, horseshit and potatoes!


and to that point again... simply saying there are things in America that need to be changed does not mean he doesn't think it's a great country, or even the greatest country, but he knows there are problems that need to be fixed and he acknowledges that. i mean, do you honestly believe your country is the greatest just because it is??? America earned the reputation of being the greatest country in the world, it didn't just happen. if you don't fight to keep it that way, it won't be true for much longer. again, whether or not you think his policies will make the country better is up for debate, but i'm tired of politicians pretending everything is great with America, and acting like they can do no wrong. i'm glad someone is acknowledging these problems instead of ignoring them, which seems to be the status quo with most politicians.

the quote (paraphrased at that) is just one example to illustrate his lack of intelligence. heard a snippet on the news last night, obama, 'al qaeda has lost all credibility...' say whud? i think the stress and the reality of the job is starting to weigh on him. does he stand by his campaign rhetoric now? or start singing another tune? is he willing to change? or will pride be his downfall that will in turn lead to more disaster? i'm thinking afghanistan. there's a new gov't in pakistan now. the world's in flux. 8 dead in afghanistan. they're shipping a body home to the local area tomorrow.
nothing is going to change there. been that way for a thousand years. before global politics came into play. what will obama do? and why does the u.s. of a. need to do anything about them?

was it somewhere on this thread that the issue of education was raised? is this an example of a new problem? or is it an example of hey, what's that over there!


i mean, do you honestly believe your country is the greatest just because it is???

sure! you bet! cave #9999 is the best cave around! all the anthropologists claim cave #9999 wouldn't be around for long if those cave-dwellers of that particular cave didn't think it was the place to be!

and i don't think we need an army of workers to go door-to-door to have people sign loyalty oaths to obama...read something like that on-line...that that was something obama wanted to have happen. did it happen? :snort: :dunno: but it fits in w/the left behind analogy! :Y:

[Todash]

in english - sadism and massochism.
Well, schadenfreude and sadism have slightly different connotations. But yeah, taking pleasure from watching your family/city/state/country/area—and by extension, you—suffer is masochistic. Oddly so.

[Srbo]

You guys are still talking about this ?

To many Chiefs, not enough Indians, I`d say.:biggrin2:

Relax a bit.:smile2:

[devious1]

well editorial columns are opinions, not actual facts or news... so the information you gather from an editorial column will be based on the writer's thoughts and beliefs, not facts. if this is where you get most of your info on Obama from it might explain why you see things the way you do... as for the "loyalty oath..." well that is just an ugly internet rumor, and it's sad that so many people believe it... i guess when you demonize a man enough, the people you demonize him to will believe anything they hear about him. i'm pretty sure that if i started a website that proclaimed that Obama is a baby killing satanist preacher and drinks human blood, by the end of the day i'd have quite a few followers...

and i still fail to see how saying America is a great country but it could be better shows a lack of intelligence... to me a lack of intelligence is ignoring these problems and hoping they will go away on their own which is what has been going on with these issues and how these problems got so big in the first place, because they were simply ignored. but look at your country as an athlete. Michael Jordan was considered by many to be the best basketball player to play the game. but even he had to work at it, he had to practice every day to get that good. he couldn't just sit around, rest on his laurels and live off his reputation. that is exactly what America is doing now, living off it's reputation. but every day that goes by and these issues aren't addressed the problems get worse. it's not about "making America like these other countries" as you put it, it's about global competition and remaining the most powerful nation by having the best education, the best economy, world-class health care, etc.. but hey, you just continue to ignore the problems, and when the superpower status finally slides away and China is the next world power... just remember that you could have done more to keep your country as great is it once was.

[devious1]

was it somewhere on this thread that the issue of education was raised? is this an example of a new problem? or is it an example of hey, what's that over there!no, the problems in the education system aren't new problems, it has been a problem for the last 20 years or more. but what has that got to do with anything? should he just say, "it was a problem before i got here, so why bother fixing it??" ask any teacher in America what they think of the educational system there, and i bet you'd be very hard pressed to find one willing to give it a glowing endorsement. should he ignore the problem? again, i don't think keeping kids in school longer is the answer (in fact i think it's a terrible idea) but it's clear that the educational system is in need of a serious overhaul. pretending the problem isn't there will not make it go away, and average grades of students will keep dropping and dropping. it's in the best interest for the future of America to fix the educational system. if you can't see that, then i really don't know what to tell you...

[JohnDalglish]

You guys are still talking about this ?

To many Chiefs, not enough Indians, I`d say.:biggrin2:

Relax a bit.:smile2:

Hi,

AWSS.

Long days and pleasant nights

[AmandaRose]

... it's about global competition and remaining the most powerful nation by having the best education, the best economy, world-class health care, etc.. but hey, you just continue to ignore the problems, and when the superpower status finally slides away and China is the next world power... just remember that you could have done more to keep your country as great is it once was.

Excuse me , but Im hearing this several times around here also about not supporting Obama or disagreeing with his changes not 'helping' my country.

Believe in Obama, just believe and your country will rise again...? I dont think so. Obama promised to make things better and instead, hear comes education overload for our kids, healthcare hell, and dont lest not forget that HUGE cigarette tax he lit some of our asses up with, right away.

I think if he 'promised' all these real changes that he is currently underwaying.... out on his campaign trail, he would have *never* gotten into office.

[AmandaRose]

i mean really, think about it. i don't believe in the devil, myself, but if you do then really think about what you're saying - then think about other figures in society, the most obvious of course being someone like adolf hitler. do you REALLY think someone like obama even begins to measure up against someone like hitler in terms of 'qualities that might make someone a valid candidate for the antichrist' ??

i mean, it is an atrociously extreme thing to say about someone - and also, if you really believe in the devil and an antichrist, then surely that must be a powerful severe heavy accusation to make at someone. just stop and listen to yourself. you're free to disagree with all obama's politics if you like, i mean who cares, to each his own, and i don't have a strong view one way or the other about the man's political decisions at the moment either so i really don't care - but to throw around words like 'antichrist'...that REALLY is taking it way way way WAY too far. that is a TERRIBLE thing to bandy around - and, in my view, gives the wrong impression of Christianity.
!


first of all, I find it amusing that you believe in God, and not the Devil. Isnt that like Good without the Evil: Ufos, but not aliens.? lol

second, for someone who doesnt feel strongly about it one way or another you are doing some heavvvy expressssing yourself about it out here.

Ah, sorry I cant take credit for the suspicions, but actually Information about Obama and antichrist are all over the internet, so maybe you can Crusade against it. :wink2:

[Nero]

You guys are still talking about this ?

To many Chiefs, not enough Indians, I`d say.:biggrin2:

Relax a bit.:smile2:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/ultimateluis/BRVHEART2.jpg

[Nero]

Ufos, but not aliens.? lol


"Unidentified flying object (commonly abbreviated as UFO or U.F.O.) is the popular term for any aerial phenomenon whose cause cannot be easily or immediately identified."

This does not have to be extraterrestrial in nature by the way. Just clarifying, not really trying to make a point or anything here.

The belief in either UFO's and Aliens can be mutually exclusive.

Just thought I'd interrupt importantly with this important interruption of importance.

[Todash]

first of all, I find it amusing that you believe in God, and not the Devil. Isnt that like Good without the Evil: Ufos, but not aliens.? lol

second, for someone who doesnt feel strongly about it one way or another you are doing some heavvvy expressssing yourself about it out here. It is not only possible but a mark of maturity to stand up for someone you see as being treated unfairly, even though you may not completely agree with that person. Integrity to one's principles does not require strong emotion.


Ah, sorry I cant take credit for the suspicions, but actually Information about Obama and antichrist are all over the internet, so maybe you can Crusade against it. There are people on the Internet who believe you can live on air, no need for food. There are people on the Internet who believe the Earth is flat. There are people on the Internet who believe all kinds of things. The only thing that proves is that people on the Internet believe those things. I can believe that I am Marie Antoinette, and I can post that on the Internet in many places, but no matter how much I believe it or how much I say it, that does not make it true. If you ever hope to convince someone that something you say is true, you will have to have better evidence than "somebody on the Internet said so."

[AmandaRose]

You guys are still talking about this ?

To many Chiefs, not enough Indians, I`d say.:biggrin2:

Relax a bit.:smile2:


Yea and we sure know whos the Chiefs and whos the Indians :laugh:

join me in the tent later and I let you hit the peace pipe. :biggrin2: how you

think we stay so calm? lol

[devious1]

Excuse me , but Im hearing this several times around here also about not supporting Obama or disagreeing with his changes not 'helping' my country.

Believe in Obama, just believe and your country will rise again...? I dont think so. Obama promised to make things better and instead, hear comes education overload for our kids, healthcare hell, and dont lest not forget that HUGE cigarette tax he lit some of our asses up with, right away.

I think if he 'promised' all these real changes that he is currently underwaying.... out on his campaign trail, he would have *never* gotten into office.i did not say that you must support and believe in Obama, what i said was that rooting for him to fail and taking joy in his failures when they happen isn't helping the country. i mean i still don't understand how you can be happy that Chicago didn't get the olympics simply because Obama wanted them there... like i said, it's not just his loss but Chicago's, and ultimately America's loss as well. i mean who needs more than a billion dollars in revenue flowing into the country and jobs that would start now when the country is in an economic crisis, right? as long as Obama doesn't get what he wants. that point of view makes no sense to me, and it does not benefit the country at all.

but let me get this straight... you're against a cigarette tax?? even though smokers take up a massive portion of health care costs with the various illnesses related to smoking? up until recently i was a smoker, and here in Canada, cigarettes are taxed heavily. it never bothered me though, because i realize the costs of treating the sicknesses related to smoking (self-inflicted injuries in my view) and the drain smokers cause on the health care industry and taxpayers. i say if you want to make yourself sick you should be willing to chip in more of your own tax dollars to your treatment if and when you develop cancer or emphysema. i see nothing wrong with a tax on cigarettes, or any other unnecessary product that has no real effect other than to be a detriment to your health and ultimately cause you to be more of a drain on taxpayers.

[Srbo]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/ultimateluis/BRVHEART2.jpg

Dude, that is Scotland.
Learn your history and geography. :biggrin2:

[Srbo]

Yea and we sure know whos the Chiefs and whos the Indians :laugh:

join me in the tent later and I let you hit the peace pipe. :biggrin2: how you

think we stay so calm? lol

I don`t know how clam you are, guys.

A long time ago, afreind of mine said this :

" Arguing on the internet is like when two mentally challenged people are arguing in an asylum. Even the winner is a loser."

And don`t take this the wrong way, I laughed hard on that one.:laugh:

[Roseasharn]

first of all, I find it amusing that you believe in God, and not the Devil. Isnt that like Good without the Evil: Ufos, but not aliens.? lol

second, for someone who doesnt feel strongly about it one way or another you are doing some heavvvy expressssing yourself about it out here.

Ah, sorry I cant take credit for the suspicions, but actually Information about Obama and antichrist are all over the internet, so maybe you can Crusade against it. :wink2:

Obama the antichrist e mails have been making their way through my email inbox since before he was elected. I usually send them back with this little sweet bible verse:

1 John 4:18
18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

and nothing else.

There has been conjecture about almost every ruler of every western nation at some point in time with regards to the Antichrist. Bad news: Its bad press and gets in the way of things. Good news: calling a pig a bear won't make it one. Thank God no one has the power to manifest him, or I swear, some Christians would have had this world over with eons ago.

Only God knows if or when there will be an Antichrist to bring about the end of days.

Time spent trying to paint someone with that brush is time wasted.

And that's my two cents about "Obama the antichrist" theories.

As to racism, yeah, I think racism plays a part in some of the critiques of Obama. But I think that can be productive. Lets get it out there and kill it already. Racism is far more dangerous and harder to address when it is underground.

But I also think plenty of liberals make the mistake of painting every critique as racist and that just isn't true. Every president makes mistakes. Deflecting it all with "Hey, that's racist, man!" is bad form and won't help anyone.

And that's my two cents about Obama and Racism

[AmandaRose]

"Unidentified flying object (commonly abbreviated as UFO or U.F.O.) is the popular term for any aerial phenomenon whose cause cannot be easily or immediately identified."

This does not have to be extraterrestrial in nature by the way. Just clarifying, not really trying to make a point or anything here.

The belief in either UFO's and Aliens can be mutually exclusive.

Just thought I'd interrupt importantly with this important interruption of importance.

oooo its the word patrol, I knew I should of said alien spacecraft but ufo was easier to type, and somebody needs a good spanking! :devil:

[Patricia A]

What!? Really!? President Obama's an African American!?
It never ceases to amaze me how much info I'm able to glean from you all.
Seriously though ya'll it's going to make a difference to some people, both positively and negatively, but the majority has spoken and to most of us it's a moot point, he got elected and it is what it is.

[devious1]

i just want to say thanks to everybody for keeping things civil for the most part... this is clearly a divisive issue people here feel strongly about, but the personal attacks have been kept to a minimum. there are some posts that have been borderline on that front, and i may have even pushed it a little bit, but things have generally been kept civil. but please, let's keep it that way.

i also want to suggest that maybe we change the topic of this thread to just being about all things Obama, since it is so far off the original topic at this point that that's what it might as well be. any objections???

[AmandaRose]

It is not only possible but a mark of maturity to stand up for someone you see as being treated unfairly, even though you may not completely agree with that person. Integrity to one's principles does not require strong emotion.

There are people on the Internet who believe you can live on air, no need for food. There are people on the Internet who believe the Earth is flat. There are people on the Internet who believe all kinds of things. The only thing that proves is that people on the Internet believe those things. I can believe that I am Marie Antoinette, and I can post that on the Internet in many places, but no matter how much I believe it or how much I say it, that does not make it true. If you ever hope to convince someone that something you say is true, you will have to have better evidence than "somebody on the Internet said so."

Whaaaat? :laugh: So you presume to assume that Im trying hard to convince someone that 'I say 'true'?' how sweet, but no was passing along my opinions and other reasons why ALOT of people dont' like Obama, that have nothing to do with his race. :wink2: really dont give a dam who doesnt believe it, thats their ass, lol.

[malarabid]

Rambling....

Politicians and other various artists have been helping us visualize and find words and metaphors to use (for centuries!) to express our fears. If it wasn't a little bit fun, we wouldn't do it (or read a SK book).

Want to try being in a never-neverland of racisim? It can be funny, but it's also disappointing. For instance, I'm a native American who grew up in a white community in PA. But even when I lived in NC, people still asked me, "What ARE you?" (usual answer: "an alien"). If I detailed my background, they'd say that was "cool" (in PA) or express their sentiment that they were glad I was a "real Indian" (unlike those fake, unrecognized by the federal gov't Catawba "Indians," in NC). Or going to a bar to do karaoke with a friend who worried, "Watch us be the only white people there!" "But I'm not white." "Well, you're close enough." Huh?

Yes, it was a shock to realize that to lots of the people around me, I was not much more than a relic or coffee-table book they could show off to friends.

Did you know I was denied a race-based scholarship from Penn State? It was only offered to Blacks and Latinos (not Asians!) because their numbers were underrepresented at the University. Native Americans were not eligible because there are no official government-recognized Reservations in PA. I've never seen any official Reservations for Blacks or Latinos (and I don't WANT to!). I've also spend a lot of time around rural-living folk from west PA because that is where I grew up (and another reason why I wanted to read From a Buick 8), and you should see how "white people" laugh at one another out there if someone gets collegiate aspirations.

I think it's all about Education. It's not just an American Dream to aspire, to have ambition, to want to better yourself, to be curious, etc. But is sad that in elementary schools all over the USA, kids are laughing at and calling those who want to do better "nerds" as a disparaging term, and there are still families laughing at their members who want to continue education beyond high school.

I spent a year at a British school in Egypt in 1986 when I was in 5th grade, and when someone got a gold star for a drawing or math test etc, everyone wanted to be their friend that day (and find out how they DID it!). Quite shocking to come back next year and find out nothing really mattered to the other kids except what clothes I was wearing.

My adoptive mother (I was adopted when I was 2.5 months old) is white, and she taught in a formerly "Black school" in Athens, GA during their 1st year of desegregation. Originally from New Hampshire, she was teaching while my dad made his way through Graduate school. The first day she taught, a little boy walked up to her desk to challenge her: "I'm Black, and I'm proud," he announced, waiting for her denouncement and a punishment. As the class witnessed, she told him he should always be proud of himself. Whomever you are, it's much more important to have pride and faith in yourself, instead of worrying so much about what other people think or about who other people are claiming to be.

I hope for the good will, success, and uplifting of all people, regardless of race, religion, political party, country of origin, or any other human label and category we or they place themselves in. It would be naive as believing the Mayan were a peaceful people to think that the path to betterment is not fraught with potholes. It's too bad hope is not enough.

I'd like to say that the ideal thing to do is just forget about the question "Are there racists against Obama?" and instead we should each focus on what can we do as individuals to better the world right here, right now. It's even good that all of our answers will be different. I still think that more education is the answer, because how can we make any good decisions (even about the most basic facets of our lives) without some knowledge, or a continual desire to acquire more knowledge and understanding of the world?

[TBlack]

Whaaaat? :laugh: So you presume to assume that Im trying hard to convince someone that 'I say 'true'?' how sweet, but no was passing along my opinions and other reasons why ALOT of people dont' like Obama, that have nothing to do with his race. :wink2: really dont give a dam who doesnt believe it, thats their ass, lol.
Your compassionate concerns for my ass are greatly appreciated!

[Bluey Lunger]

well editorial columns are opinions, not actual facts or news... so the information you gather from an editorial column will be based on the writer's thoughts and beliefs, not facts. if this is where you get most of your info on Obama from it might explain why you see things the way you do...

dave, i stopped watching the news when dan rather entered, stage left, w/a phony document intended to discredit bush. someone in their pajamas discredited the document a half-hour after it was aired. i could go on and on about the media. check out the media research center, some of the books bernard goldberg has written, othes. some of the opinion columns, on the other hand, have told me what has been happening--yeah, you bet, facts. and then they go on to editorialize on the matter. i wasn't born yesterday. i get news there i wouldn't get elsewhere because the media has an agenda and i'm so tired of feeling manipulated by the "news" that i don't bother w/it.


and i still fail to see how saying America is a great country but it could be better shows a lack of intelligence... to me a lack of intelligence is ignoring these problems and hoping they will go away on their own which is what has been going on with these issues and how these problems got so big in the first place, because they were simply ignored.

that example cited is but one of many, dave. what obama said regarding the police tells me the man has no conception of police training. what obama said about the people of western pennsylvania tells me that man isn't intelligent, he is guilty of a kind of racism that is thrown about by his defenders. remember that one, those people in western PA, clinging to their guns and religion. intelligent? not by a long shot. or how intelligent was it for him to be associated w/that guy in the pulpit at the all-illinois church of the modern christ, you remember, the guy who ranted, used god's name in vain--if this is what happens at all black churches, is it any wonder they are often angry? i could make an analogy about some guys in white robes and conical-shaped hoods, ranting and raving. why does obama get a free pass on that one? need i continue? "all qaeda lost credibility" he recently said. when did al qaeda have credibility? or how about when his true colors showed, let's "spread the wealth around".

but thanks for not coming back w/that tired and lame argument, 'well, bush did things!' as if i think bush is or was any better. the question remains to be seen, when obama falters, will he get back up? will his mistakes be minimized and excused? will blame be leveled toward the republicans? obama has both houses of congress, what's the hold-up? he'd better hurry, as there's another election next year and the people will speak again.

[Bluey Lunger]

no, the problems in the education system aren't new problems, it has been a problem for the last 20 years or more. but what has that got to do with anything? should he just say, "it was a problem before i got here, so why bother fixing it??" ask any teacher in America what they think of the educational system there, and i bet you'd be very hard pressed to find one willing to give it a glowing endorsement. should he ignore the problem? again, i don't think keeping kids in school longer is the answer (in fact i think it's a terrible idea) but it's clear that the educational system is in need of a serious overhaul. pretending the problem isn't there will not make it go away, and average grades of students will keep dropping and dropping. it's in the best interest for the future of America to fix the educational system. if you can't see that, then i really don't know what to tell you...

really. exactly so. i'm no fan of the educational system as it exists in the u.s. of a. treat yourself. check out john taylor gatto's underground history of american education. or check out the dumbing down of america, available on-line, or at least it was five-six years ago.

to suggest that obama can "fix" the education system is a real hoot. i'm familiar enough w/the experts who know best to know that anything more than effort at the local level is nothing more than an expansion of the elitist's power. i say, hey mr. obama, let the locals teach their children. or better yet, let them home school. i am flat-out tired of folk who insist that someone needs to pedigreed, gov't-decreed, politi-fied and sancti-fried, by big massive government. i think that 70-year-old veternarian/plumber/house wife could do as good a job teaching something, rather than that decreed by some large central control. for starters, i'd hazard someone like that could teach our youth to think, then maybe we can begin to change!

[Tery]

Whaaaat? :laugh: So you presume to assume that Im trying hard to convince someone that 'I say 'true'?' how sweet, but no was passing along my opinions and other reasons why ALOT of people dont' like Obama, that have nothing to do with his race. :wink2: really dont give a dam who doesnt believe it, thats their ass, lol.


See Amanda, this is exactly the attitude that irritates people: dont give a dam who doesnt believe it, thats their ass, That's their ass? The implication here is that YOU know better than anyone else.

Your posts belie your words, you presume to assume that Im trying hard to convince someone that 'I say 'true'?' You appear to have been trying very hard to convince everyone of just that. The video, the allusions to a work of fiction as fact, the assertions that YOU, after all, have the real inside info on this...

Listen, this MB is loaded with very intelligent people. Some of us are quite well-versed in religious theory and history. Some of us are very politically savvy. Sharing your opinions is fine. Implying that they are the only acceptable or true ones is not. And you DO imply that. And adding a "lol" or a cute smilie does not offset the nastiness of some comments you've made, especially about Obama. Ugly is ugly and trying to dress it up as pretty is pointless.

Amanda, we've known one another for awhile here. You know that I am not unreasonable; I am open to FACTS in any debate. But I am not open to being condescended to. I know that you don't like our President. Fine. Nobody says you have to like him. But this attitude of "anything he wants, I don't" is not only childish, it is harmful. No, you don't have to support or agree with him. But a knee-jerk reaction to anything he says or does is not a mature tactic in this debate. I know I would appreciate a mature interaction here... can we do that, please?

[AmandaRose]

Your compassionate concerns for my ass are greatly appreciated!


oooo T, you know I would cover your ass, with my own ass, lol :wink2: them chickens jackin my , feathers! :laugh:

[MadamMack]

See Amanda, this is exactly the attitude that irritates people: dont give a dam who doesnt believe it, thats their ass, That's their ass? The implication here is that YOU know better than anyone else.

Your posts belie your words, you presume to assume that Im trying hard to convince someone that 'I say 'true'?' You appear to have been trying very hard to convince everyone of just that. The video, the allusions to a work of fiction as fact, the assertions that YOU, after all, have the real inside info on this...

Listen, this MB is loaded with very intelligent people. Some of us are quite well-versed in religious theory and history. Some of us are very politically savvy. Sharing your opinions is fine. Implying that they are the only acceptable or true ones is not. And you DO imply that. And adding a "lol" or a cute smilie does not offset the nastiness of some comments you've made, especially about Obama. Ugly is ugly and trying to dress it up as pretty is pointless.

Amanda, we've known one another for awhile here. You know that I am not unreasonable; I am open to FACTS in any debate. But I am not open to being condescended to. I know that you don't like our President. Fine. Nobody says you have to like him. But this attitude of "anything he wants, I don't" is not only childish, it is harmful. No, you don't have to support or agree with him. But a knee-jerk reaction to anything he says or does is not a mature tactic in this debate. I know I would appreciate a mature interaction here... can we do that, please?


I've stayed the hell out of this thread but I will speak now: AMEN!

[TBlack]

oooo T, you know I would cover your ass, with my own ass, lol :wink2: them chickens jackin my , feathers! :laugh:
Are you Thick??? lol, smilie-smilie-smilie!

[MadamMack]

Thick? lol, smilie-smilie-smilie!

:rofl:

[AmandaRose]

See Amanda, this is exactly the attitude that irritates people: dont give a dam who doesnt believe it, thats their ass, That's their ass? The implication here is that YOU know better than anyone else.

Your posts belie your words, you presume to assume that Im trying hard to convince someone that 'I say 'true'?' You appear to have been trying very hard to convince everyone of just that. The video, the allusions to a work of fiction as fact, the assertions that YOU, after all, have the real inside info on this...

Listen, this MB is loaded with very intelligent people. Some of us are quite well-versed in religious theory and history. Some of us are very politically savvy. Sharing your opinions is fine. Implying that they are the only acceptable or true ones is not. And you DO imply that. And adding a "lol" or a cute smilie does not offset the nastiness of some comments you've made, especially about Obama. Ugly is ugly and trying to dress it up as pretty is pointless.

Amanda, we've known one another for awhile here. You know that I am not unreasonable; I am open to FACTS in any debate. But I am not open to being condescended to. I know that you don't like our President. Fine. Nobody says you have to like him. But this attitude of "anything he wants, I don't" is not only childish, it is harmful. No, you don't have to support or agree with him. But a knee-jerk reaction to anything he says or does is not a mature tactic in this debate. I know I would appreciate a mature interaction here... can we do that, please?

Tery, I have always shared information out here about many many things, if I believe something I can say it, dont, then the same. So its established that I dont like him, Who caress????? Really? Do I believe that he is the antichrist? How could I possibly say that as a matter of fact? yet I share that information out here fyi .... and people just freak out over it.

I have never seen people get as fired up around here and hateful, however ugly and dressed up as ALL tend to do, as I have seen regarding Obama, or someone not supporting him. and I dont generally enter into these political threads here, but have been quite pissed about the changes going on with him enough to say so.

and apparently I dont take any of this discussion as sooo extremely seriously as so many of you, things people are say are not going to bother me like that.

and as one mentioned earlier integrity and maturity with regard to another post.. of another member, immaturity is a lot more fun for me, its how I am, I for one am not an Intelligent member here, or well-versed in religious theory and history, la la la, and dont mind not coming across that way.

and I have not *ever* implied that my opinons are the only true and acceptable ones on this board. period.

[MadamMack]

Rambling....

Politicians and other various artists have been helping us visualize and find words and metaphors to use (for centuries!) to express our fears. If it wasn't a little bit fun, we wouldn't do it (or read a SK book).

Want to try being in a never-neverland of racisim? It can be funny, but it's also disappointing. For instance, I'm a native American who grew up in a white community in PA. But even when I lived in NC, people still asked me, "What ARE you?" (usual answer: "an alien"). If I detailed my background, they'd say that was "cool" (in PA) or express their sentiment that they were glad I was a "real Indian" (unlike those fake, unrecognized by the federal gov't Catawba "Indians," in NC). Or going to a bar to do karaoke with a friend who worried, "Watch us be the only white people there!" "But I'm not white." "Well, you're close enough." Huh?

Yes, it was a shock to realize that to lots of the people around me, I was not much more than a relic or coffee-table book they could show off to friends.

Did you know I was denied a race-based scholarship from Penn State? It was only offered to Blacks and Latinos (not Asians!) because their numbers were underrepresented at the University. Native Americans were not eligible because there are no official government-recognized Reservations in PA. I've never seen any official Reservations for Blacks or Latinos (and I don't WANT to!). I've also spend a lot of time around rural-living folk from west PA because that is where I grew up (and another reason why I wanted to read From a Buick 8), and you should see how "white people" laugh at one another out there if someone gets collegiate aspirations.

I think it's all about Education. It's not just an American Dream to aspire, to have ambition, to want to better yourself, to be curious, etc. But is sad that in elementary schools all over the USA, kids are laughing at and calling those who want to do better "nerds" as a disparaging term, and there are still families laughing at their members who want to continue education beyond high school.

I spent a year at a British school in Egypt in 1986 when I was in 5th grade, and when someone got a gold star for a drawing or math test etc, everyone wanted to be their friend that day (and find out how they DID it!). Quite shocking to come back next year and find out nothing really mattered to the other kids except what clothes I was wearing.

My adoptive mother (I was adopted when I was 2.5 months old) is white, and she taught in a formerly "Black school" in Athens, GA during their 1st year of desegregation. Originally from New Hampshire, she was teaching while my dad made his way through Graduate school. The first day she taught, a little boy walked up to her desk to challenge her: "I'm Black, and I'm proud," he announced, waiting for her denouncement and a punishment. As the class witnessed, she told him he should always be proud of himself. Whomever you are, it's much more important to have pride and faith in yourself, instead of worrying so much about what other people think or about who other people are claiming to be.

I hope for the good will, success, and uplifting of all people, regardless of race, religion, political party, country of origin, or any other human label and category we or they place themselves in. It would be naive as believing the Mayan were a peaceful people to think that the path to betterment is not fraught with potholes. It's too bad hope is not enough.

I'd like to say that the ideal thing to do is just forget about the question "Are there racists against Obama?" and instead we should each focus on what can we do as individuals to better the world right here, right now. It's even good that all of our answers will be different. I still think that more education is the answer, because how can we make any good decisions (even about the most basic facets of our lives) without some knowledge, or a continual desire to acquire more knowledge and understanding of the world?


You speak true and I truly understand what you've gone through.

[Terry B]

well editorial columns are opinions, not actual facts or news... so the information you gather from an editorial column will be based on the writer's thoughts and beliefs, not facts. if this is where you get most of your info on Obama from it might explain why you see things the way you do... as for the "loyalty oath..." well that is just an ugly internet rumor, and it's sad that so many people believe it... i guess when you demonize a man enough, the people you demonize him to will believe anything they hear about him. i'm pretty sure that if i started a website that proclaimed that Obama is a baby killing satanist preacher and drinks human blood, by the end of the day i'd have quite a few followers...

and i still fail to see how saying America is a great country but it could be better shows a lack of intelligence... to me a lack of intelligence is ignoring these problems and hoping they will go away on their own which is what has been going on with these issues and how these problems got so big in the first place, because they were simply ignored. but look at your country as an athlete. Michael Jordan was considered by many to be the best basketball player to play the game. but even he had to work at it, he had to practice every day to get that good. he couldn't just sit around, rest on his laurels and live off his reputation. that is exactly what America is doing now, living off it's reputation. but every day that goes by and these issues aren't addressed the problems get worse. it's not about "making America like these other countries" as you put it, it's about global competition and remaining the most powerful nation by having the best education, the best economy, world-class health care, etc.. but hey, you just continue to ignore the problems, and when the superpower status finally slides away and China is the next world power... just remember that you could have done more to keep your country as great is it once was.

THIS is one of the best comments I've read here so far. Thanks Devious.

[Tery]

Don't be disingenuous, Amanda. You know you have been out of line on this topic so don't play the victim now. This whole anti-Christ stuff was not an "fyi".. you've been flogging it as truth since your first mention of it.

Yes, I am fired up. I am fired up because I see the possibility for change. Then I see ignorance and fear trying to stop it. And I am sad that people allow themselves to be manipulated like that by ideologues and others who seek only to maintain the status quo (i.e., keep the money flowing to the corp, banks, lobbyists and crooked politicos). Yes, I am soooooo serious about this. I'm serious because it affects people; people who are poor, can't afford health care, homes, food... This is not some kind of game, Amanda. REAL people are dying. Are you not then able to understand a sob because it does not sound like yours?

Don't for one minute think that you are being successful at hiding your fear behind the "lol"s and smilies, either. I get that you're scared. Change scares people. But change can be good. Look where we would be if we never changed things -- living in a cave, hunting & gathering and dying at 35 of old age. Change is scary but so is life. One can either try to adapt and control change or lie in a hole shivering and shouting against it. If the latter appeals to you, great... but don't expect the rest of us to cower with you.

If you want to be immature, that's your own look out. But don't you dare act that way in regards such a serious topic and expect not to get called out for it. As I said, I don't care that you don't support Obama. I know that not everybody does. But there comes down to a difference between not supporting and actively trying to tear someone down. You can do the former to your heart's content but I will call you, and anyone, out on the latter.

[AmandaRose]

Don't be disingenuous, Amanda. You know you have been out of line on this topic so don't play the victim now. This whole anti-Christ stuff was not an "fyi".. you've been flogging it as truth since your first mention of it.

Yes, I am fired up. I am fired up because I see the possibility for change. Then I see ignorance and fear trying to stop it. And I am sad that people allow themselves to be manipulated like that by ideologues and others who seek only to maintain the status quo (i.e., keep the money flowing to the corp, banks, lobbyists and crooked politicos). Yes, I am soooooo serious about this. I'm serious because it affects people; people who are poor, can't afford health care, homes, food... This is not some kind of game, Amanda. REAL people are dying. Are you not then able to understand a sob because it does not sound like yours?

Don't for one minute think that you are being successful at hiding your fear behind the "lol"s and smilies, either. I get that you're scared. Change scares people. But change can be good. Look where we would be if we never changed things -- living in a cave, hunting & gathering and dying at 35 of old age. Change is scary but so is life. One can either try to adapt and control change or lie in a hole shivering and shouting against it. If the latter appeals to you, great... but don't expect the rest of us to cower with you.

If you want to be immature, that's your own look out. But don't you dare act that way in regards such a serious topic and expect not to get called out for it. As I said, I don't care that you don't support Obama. I know that not everybody does. But there comes down to a difference between not supporting and actively trying to tear someone down. You can do the former to your heart's content but I will call you, and anyone, out on the latter.

I heard someone say once that if theres ever to be a Civil War, angered Obama supporters would start it. Very very Mature on your part to call me out and just start labeling me all these things, you, you, you Amanda, Amanda, Amanda, but bottom line is, you dont know me, at all , and especially not solely by what I type here... and btw I use smiles alot because 'I am playing alot'!

and now Im acting like a victim? of what....? though extremely outnumbered here that is for sure, personal attack all you want, it does scream volumes...about you. :wink2: <- sarcastic wink right. and don't read any of my opinions if they so personally offend you all so much its as simple as that isnt it?

[Matticus]

... i guess when you demonize a man enough, the people you demonize him to will believe anything they hear about him. i'm pretty sure that if i started a website that proclaimed that Obama is a baby killing satanist preacher and drinks human blood, by the end of the day i'd have quite a few followers...

I only want to comment on this because I really feel like the issue of racism in this country is misguided on just about every level.

The above made me smile a bit because I'm not really a fan of any politicians left or right but this exact same thing was done to our last president. That quote, out of context, could just as easily been said about Bush.

I personally believe the nastiness in politics has gone too far but I believed that about 5 years ago and my opinion hasn't changed with the new administration. The only thing that is new is the side that is pissed and the side that is defending the administration.

[devious1]

really. exactly so. i'm no fan of the educational system as it exists in the u.s. of a. treat yourself. check out john taylor gatto's underground history of american education. or check out the dumbing down of america, available on-line, or at least it was five-six years ago.

to suggest that obama can "fix" the education system is a real hoot. i'm familiar enough w/the experts who know best to know that anything more than effort at the local level is nothing more than an expansion of the elitist's power. i say, hey mr. obama, let the locals teach their children. or better yet, let them home school. i am flat-out tired of folk who insist that someone needs to pedigreed, gov't-decreed, politi-fied and sancti-fried, by big massive government. i think that 70-year-old veternarian/plumber/house wife could do as good a job teaching something, rather than that decreed by some large central control. for starters, i'd hazard someone like that could teach our youth to think, then maybe we can begin to change!home schooling is a fine idea in some cases... but just how exactly do you know what kind of education kids are getting if they are all being home schooled or community schooled? what happens when that 70 year old veterinarian/plumber/housewife isn't as smart as the 40 year old doctor/mother of 3 teaching the kids a town over? and who knows what these kids are learning if they are all being schooled by different people with no kind of agreed upon curriculum? will these parents have to be licensed as teachers so we know that they will be properly informing their children/students?

in a country with a population the size of America, there is no way to have an effective educational system without some kind of governing board. the one in place, as it is now, isn't working. it needs to be fixed. i don't believe Obama presumes he can fix all the problems in the system, but someone has to start looking at the issue and start making the small changes that will turn into larger changes in the future. and yes it can be fixed. it will take time but with the right changes it can be fixed. it remains to be seen if he will make the right ones. in my book he hasn't started out on the right foot, but i maintain hope that he will make some of the changes that need to be made. after all this is the future of America we're talking about here, right? the future leaders of the country? it's important they get the best education that can be provided to them.

[Patricia A]

IMO President Obama could invent the wheel and by the next day someone would be hollering that "It'll never work! It's too round!"
He could find a cure for cancer and there would be those hard at work spinning cancer into a desirable condition, they would say things like the government is trying to come between you and your God given right to tumors etc.
Corporate interests would pay for angry little mobs with teabags dangling from their hats to travel to town hall meetings (in buses with square wheels no doubt) to advocate against wheels and pass out irradiated cigarettes and call them freedom smokes.
I don't think all of those people are bigots, nor are all of them utterly ignorant, but some are.
Some of them are frightened and can't reach beyond cynicism and have been misled by sources they trust and don't question.
Some of them are actually quite clever but dangerously greedy and have an agenda and will work it by manipulating the truth and milking people's fear and ignorance, and the color of their agenda is more about green than black.
Lord knows I'm personally not against disagreeing with the POTUS, it's disagreeing with facts that trouble me.

[scratchesass]

and as one mentioned earlier integrity and maturity with regard to another post.. of another member, immaturity is a lot more fun for me, its how I am, I for one am not an Intelligent member here, or well-versed in religious theory and history, la la la, and dont mind not coming across that way.

and I have not *ever* implied that my opinons are the only true and acceptable ones on this board. period.


S'ok 'Manda, I's an ignert southernr too.

Just 'cause you don't want the Kool-aid that don't make you stoopid.


Yes m'dear, tis yer right to gits all fired up AND tis other folks right to gits fired up and come back atcha.

So can I propose a truce? Feelings have been hurt here. Don't say they haven't cause they have.


You either hate Komrade Obama or you're willing to at least take the glass of Kool Aid and give it a good sniff. It's your choice. There aren't to many people who are in the middle of those lines. Yes, there are some and I know everyone here will claim to fall within those lines, but, deep down, even Jesse Jackson wanted to geld him. I prolly can't quote the Reverend, Ms Mod wouldn't like that.
Be grateful for that choice, it's about the only freedom we have left.

Don't hate me cause I don't drink Kool-aid and I won't hate you for believing that he can actually change Washington.

"We're gonna go to Washington and CHANGE how things are done there"

Barack Obama, 2008.

[Moderator]

Yet another thread that will not be open much longer if it continues in this direction.

[thymeoperator]

and I have not *ever* implied that my opinons are the only true and acceptable ones on this board. period.

really? so what was that you said about how my religious beliefs were 'laughable'?

someone asked how calm we all are here, and i will say i'm quite calm - i'm not about lose sleep over an internet forum thread - but it IS an interesting thread and i do also agree with what Tery said about certain attitudes holding us back from making big beneficial changes, and i would say that stands true in any country. and i personally have a huge problem with people who distort religion into something that somehow justifies their own hostility toward others, because i think it gives a bad rep to religions and does a great disservice to those believers who aren't hostile about it. i also think, as i said yesterday, a vast proportion of the world's problems over the millenia have been caused, at their root, by people of one religion claiming they hold the only possible truth and therefore everyone else is a heathen, and we have seen this throughout history, either in the guise of international wars, civil wars, or just among a group of people chatting on the internet. i don't see why anyone should feel the need to make others agree with them about religion - just have confidence in your own faith and leave everyone else be.

you will note i didn't call your faith 'laughable', amanda - what i said was that i have a deep respect for christianity but i do not believe trashing other people's views and bandying around terms like 'antichrist' just because you disagree with a man's politics have anything at all to do with christianity, and i think it's a dangerous way of thinking and speaking to others. i also think it's cruel and judgmental, and fundamentally against everything the bible teaches. and when you weigh up the 'evils' of the world, throughout history, i think it's a bit presumptuous of people, you or anyone on the internet you say has this same idea, to say 'obama is the antichrist'.

and as for what you said about me seeming to have quite strong views on this subject, you're right, i do - but i never said i didn't. what i said was that i have no set view on obama's POLITICS. and i don't - i haven't lived in america for ten years, so my information about the states is based on what my friends tell me and snippets i hear in the international news. therefore i will not make a statement about whether i think he's a good president or not, because i have no way to judge that. BUT, yes i do feel strongly about labelling people 'antichrist', and i do feel strongly about mixing religion with politics because i just do not think it should be done, and even the american constitution states that it should not be done. i don't care what religion it is, it shouldn't have anything to do with judgments of politics. if you want to state that you disagree with obama's politics, go right ahead, but to drag things in like 'the ideas in a FICTIONAL book series make obama seem likely to be the antichrist' into the debate is absolutely uncalled for. it goes right up there with this unbelievable moment some years back when my best friend, who was stationed in alabama at the time, discovered the state was celebrating halloween on the 30th instead of 31st because the 31st fell on a sunday that year - it's so obvious that they must have decided it couldn't be celebrated on the sabbath, yet when she queried it someone genuinely told her bush had declared halloween should be moved because of terrorism. my point: wildly off-subject irrelevant 'how on earth did you get from the original subject to THAT idea?' replies - thoughtless replies that do damage in the long run. you state that you aren't well-versed in politics, etc. well neither am i, and that is why i don't get involved in the issues i don't understand. and i really think you shouldn't either. that's not being mean - it's just a fact that i think these things should be left to people who do follow it enough to have an educated opinion and don't just start shouting 'antichrist' for absolutely no valid justifiable reason, and then start telling others their religious views are 'laughable' etc.

[thymeoperator]

furthermore, to answer what you said, if you want to know - the idea of God is not exclusive of the idea of 'evil'. me not believing in the devil makes perfect sense if you're willing to listen to a view that is different to yours and give it respect. the word 'omnipotent' implies/means all-powerful, nothing outside of it, everything, totality. if there is such a thing as God, he had to have created the evil in the world too. and there can't be an equal opposite force to him, such as the devil, because that would mean he's no longer an omnipotent God. therefore i do not believe in the devil - i believe the devil to be a symbol, a metaphor for the dark urges and temptations within all living organisms, and it's our choice which path to follow, but ultimately God made them all. also, i do not believe there is anything as clear-cut as 'good' and 'evil' - that is black and white thinking, and the world is greyer than that, in reality. in fact, it's been shown again and again in psychological studies that people who think in very black and white terms are more emotionally unstable, more prone to fighting with people, more hostile, less confident, less secure in their world view and self-image, have more 'warped thoughts' as cognitive-behavioural therapy calls it, and often have borderline personality disorder, and also are less emotionally mature because pure black and white thinking is generally something toddlers do and growing out of it is part of the healthy balanced maturity process. because i just know you're going to turn this around and say i'm making accusations, i'm NOT, i'm just stating that to explain, since you asked, why i do not personally believe in concepts of 'good' versus 'pure evil', and i try to see the world in a greyer way. not always easy, but i truly believe it is one way toward peace among people.

and one final note - i find it outrageous that in my post to you yesterday i was basically saying 'let's all stop the shouting and fighting in the name of religion and instead try to be nicer to our fellow men/women - love thy neighbour and all that - why can't we all just get along?' and you turned it around to asking if i was on my own crusade, because i'd mentioned the crusades. so you turned around and likened me to a bunch of nutcase megalomaniacs who randomly decided to slaughter innocent people. it goes right up there with brandishing the word 'antichrist' to some politician you don't like because he decided to make it more expensive for you to smoke yourself to an early grave. WORDS HAVE POWER. start thinking before you speak and stop trashing everyone as a method of self-defense. because really that's all it is - that's all it is when anyone feels the need to lower themselves to name-calling, it's a case of trying to cut others down, rather than confidently letting them disagree with you. and i'm so so so so tired of it, because the last couple months i feel like any time i comment on something on this forum, there's always one person who decides to jump in and get nasty and ruin the conversation for no reason.

[Bluey Lunger]

home schooling is a fine idea in some cases... but just how exactly do you know what kind of education kids are getting if they are all being home schooled or community schooled? what happens when that 70 year old veterinarian/plumber/housewife isn't as smart as the 40 year old doctor/mother of 3 teaching the kids a town over? and who knows what these kids are learning if they are all being schooled by different people with no kind of agreed upon curriculum? will these parents have to be licensed as teachers so we know that they will be properly informing their children/students?

you really ought to check out gatto's book, dave. i've met home-schooled kids and have been amazed. when a twelve-year-old can sit down and articulate themes espoused in dickens a tale of two cities, and when jay leno interviews a harvard graduate on the street and asks the grad what homer wrote and she says something about mr. simpson...the 12-yr-old being home-schooled, to me, that's evidence that the problem isn't w/the children, it's with how and what they are being taught. to suggest the same numb-skulls who created the system can fix it is an exercise in futility.

i think that 70-year-old (fill-in-the-blank) could teach our youth based on his or her experience and i think the community in which that person lives could vouch for that person. they would know best, no? no, not an all-day thingy. give them an hour a day. perhaps that person could teach our youth how to think critically, instead of being taught to have government think for them.



in a country with a population the size of America, there is no way to have an effective educational system without some kind of governing board. the one in place, as it is now, isn't working. it needs to be fixed.

you really ought to check out gatto's book, the underground history of american education, dave. the other i mentioned was available on-line.
the answer isn't bigger, the answer is smaller. when a home-schooled student comes off sounding more intelligent than a harvard grad, this perfect day, where does the problem lie?

[AmandaRose]

S'ok 'Manda, I's an ignert southernr too.

Just 'cause you don't want the Kool-aid that don't make you stoopid.


Yes m'dear, tis yer right to gits all fired up AND tis other folks right to gits fired up and come back atcha.

So can I propose a truce? Feelings have been hurt here. Don't say they haven't cause they have.


You either hate Komrade Obama or you're willing to at least take the glass of Kool Aid and give it a good sniff. It's your choice. There aren't to many people who are in the middle of those lines. Yes, there are some and I know everyone here will claim to fall within those lines, but, deep down, even Jesse Jackson wanted to geld him. I prolly can't quote the Reverend, Ms Mod wouldn't like that.
Be grateful for that choice, it's about the only freedom we have left.

Don't hate me cause I don't drink Kool-aid and I won't hate you for believing that he can actually change Washington.

"We're gonna go to Washington and CHANGE how things are done there"

Barack Obama, 2008.


Scratch ya know Im liking you but, just where do you get off calling me an ignorant Southerner...? speak for yourself. You might say a thread like this gives you an idea about how the Koolaid is working.

I assure you, Im not leaving here with any less friends than I came in here with, honey. :smile2: I would prefer that people be honestly hateful, than dishonest and backstabbing, anyday.

[JohnDalglish]

You guys are still talking about this ?

To many Chiefs, not enough Indians, I`d say.:biggrin2:

Relax a bit.:smile2:

Hi,

Considering that Srbo has seen firsthand the results of religious, racial and political intolerance in a way that none of us can truly comprehend I think you should all have taken his advice a few pages back.

Chill indeed!

Long days and pleasant nights

[TBlack]

in the words of an old Republican (& he was really old):
"Ms.Mod? Tear Down This Thread!"

[Anni M]

Yet another thread that will not be open much longer if it continues in this direction.
Thing is I don't see it going in any other direction...damage is done and it's a nasty business...
Close it now, please Mod?