Inhumane

[aptpupil]

Here I go again. I can't help myself! :cool2:

A couple of days ago, the state of Ohio tried and failed to execute convicted murderer Romell Broom for a crime committed 25 years ago, because they were unable to find a vein into which they could place the lethal injection. Apparently, the attempt to take his life lasted for two hours, by which time Broom was in pain and mental anguish which had reduced him to tears. I can barely comprehend how traumatising this event must have been for him. Of course, the date will simply be rescheduled, and Romell Broom can spend his final days fearing not only his death, but the possible repetition of the whole macabre episode.

The USA, or at least parts of it, stands alone amongst nations of the civilised Western world in sanctioning the death penalty, whether it be by hanging, electric chair, or lethal injection, and it seems, to me at least, to be a practice that reflects very badly on the society that endorses it. I personally spent many years campaigning, through the medium of letter-writing on behalf of Amnesty International, for an end to this barbaric remnant of the dark ages, but there is obviously still a long way to go.

"Now my waiting's almost over
As the final hour drags by
And I ain't about to tell you
That I don't deserve to die
But there's twenty-seven men here
Mostly black and brown and poor
Maybe most of them are guilty
Who are you to say for sure?
So when the preacher comes to get me
And they shave off all my hair
Could you take that long walk with me
Knowing Hell is waiting there?
Could you pull that switch yourself sir
With a sure and steady hand
And could you still tell yourself
That you're better than I am?"

Steve Earle "Billy Austin".

[Nero]

Here I go again. I can't help myself! :cool2:

A couple of days ago, the state of Ohio tried and failed to execute convicted murderer Romell Broom for a crime committed 25 years ago, because they were unable to find a vein into which they could place the lethal injection. Apparently, the attempt to take his life lasted for two hours, by which time Broom was in pain and mental anguish which had reduced him to tears. I can barely comprehend how traumatising this event must have been for him. Of course, the date will simply be rescheduled, and Romell Broom can spend his final days fearing not only his death, but the possible repetition of the whole macabre episode.

The USA, or at least parts of it, stands alone amongst nations of the civilised Western world in sanctioning the death penalty, whether it be by hanging, electric chair, or lethal injection, and it seems, to me at least, to be a practice that reflects very badly on the society that endorses it. I personally spent many years campaigning, through the medium of letter-writing on behalf of Amnesty International, for an end to this barbaric remnant of the dark ages, but there is obviously still a long way to go.

"Now my waiting's almost over
As the final hour drags by
And I ain't about to tell you
That I don't deserve to die
But there's twenty-seven men here
Mostly black and brown and poor
Maybe most of them are guilty
Who are you to say for sure?
So when the preacher comes to get me
And they shave off all my hair
Could you take that long walk with me
Knowing Hell is waiting there?
Could you pull that switch yourself sir
With a sure and steady hand
And could you still tell yourself
That you're better than I am?"

Steve Earle "Billy Austin".

I heard about this one the other day. They couldn't find a good vein because the guy had done so much heroin throughout his life.

Look, I am not for the death penalty myself. Especially not one that's drawn out like this. They should have planned it out better, should have anticipated a vein issue due to his drugtype history which was well known.

But... I scratch my head at how this guy and his attorney could whine over a bunch of pinpricks when he wasn't above raping and stabbing a little girl to death.

[Ubasti]

I don't have a problem with the death penalty, but I do have a problem with mistakes in the process which end up causing pain and suffering for both the convict and, I would think, for the victims and their families. I'm sure there's probably some sense of pleasure when you're watching some one who brutally killed a love one suffer their own misery, but I would imagine that the point would come where you would be disturbed by the prolonging of it.

It inexcusable that another means of execution wasn't considered when his long term drug use was well known. Aren't medical professionals supposed to be involved in an execution? Wouldn't they have seen his medical records, etc. and been aware of the fact that his veins would be in such bad shape?

[poisonbat]

Why didn't they simply put it in his neck? Great veins there. It would have saved the misery of everyone involved. I am pro death penalty in extreme cases. Child rapers and murderers are at the top of my list.

[Todash]

Here I go again. I can't help myself! :cool2:

Can't, huh? :eyebrow: Here is my exact post on a similar thread some months back. I liked this post and so I'm repeating myself.

There are two separate issues here.

1. Can a person commit a crime that has as its proper punishment the forfeiture of that person's life? Yes, I think so.

2. Is society capable of correctly determining who those people are? Considering that 17 people have been freed from death row in the US so far, exonerated by DNA evidence, I would have to say no. Seventeen people freed, and how many more went to their graves innocent? No one knows. When an individual kills an innocent person, we call that murder and punish accordingly. When the state kills an innocent person, there are no repercussions. "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice."

[Nero]

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice."[/COLOR]

Gandalf speaks true.

[Roseasharn]

I am, generally speaking, uncomfortable with this topic.
Here's why: there is a part of me that says because all the other liberals around me are all "Capital Punishment is WRONG" that I should think the same. And I think I might.
But here's where it gets complicated.
I'm far more comfortable with hot vengeance than I am with cold execution. I don't think I say that proudly, in fact, I'm a little bewildered by it. When we were living in the midwest, I knew a man who killed another man. And he killed that other man because that other man took his three year old son by the ankles and slammed him against a wall until he died. All the father did was shoot the guy who did it (his ex-wife's new boyfriend, by the way) and the guy died.
I would have done much worse.
Now, I am also not proud of that fact. But I think self knowledge is important and I was in therapy for a lot of years learning how to control my own very serious anger problem.
But if you killed my kid on purpose, I can't say that I wouldn't lose all my coping skills.
So vengeance makes very real sense to me when it has to do with children. A grown adult with all of their faculties intact stands a fair chance of fighting if someone tries to take them down.
Children, the elderly and animals do not.
But a country that allows crimes of vengeance to go unpunished generally has to deal with blood feuds and those aren't really a good idea. What I think is an offense worthy of death, someone else might think is only worth a severe beating.
So then the state steps in.
And now we have to ask ourselves: is it a good idea to give the state the power to kill us, criminals or not.
EEK.
Heavy question, no?
And my answer is, I don't know.
Because for me there is no satisfaction in execution. No debt is paid there. The only thing it provides is the safety of knowing that someone who is capable of killing in cold blood is no longer a threat. And that can be achieved by locking them up forever.
But, uh, is that really humane, either?
I'd personally rather die.
Seriously, pro-lifers of the world: why do you care so little for quality of life?

[Damaris]

I used to favor the death penalty. In an ideal system I might still. But I have seen far too many innocent people convicted of crimes they did not do. Our justice system is a complete farce, and any pretense of "justice" is a blatant lie. So I do not support the death penalty. Because if even 5% of the people in jail or prison are not guilty of the crime(s) they are charged with, that is 120,000 innocent people imprisoned. That's the population of Hartford, Connecticut. Or Bellevue, Washington. Or every man, woman, and child of Charleston, South Carolina, plus another 10,000, falsely imprisoned by our "justice system." And that's using the unrealistically low rate of 5%. Bump it up to the more widely accepted 10% and you're talking the population of Orlando, Florida. Falsely imprisoned. I'm not okay with that. Everything else aside, that should be enough to stop the practice of execution. That it doesn't says a good deal more about our government - and our nation as a whole - than I like to admit.

[ally88]

OK I know I shouldn't reply to this one but like you Drew, sometime's I just can't help myself.
Whether this animals crime was commited 25years ago or even 25minutes ago is irrelevant in my eyes. The fact is he DID commit the crime!
Comprehension of how "traumatic" the non-event of his imminent death must have been for him is not something I would necessarily be worrying my pretty head over.

After all he is a grown man, very capable of understanding what was coming to him, due to his own actions. Unlike the girl he raped and murdered. I only hope that girl will not have had a chance to comprehend what was happening to her, as that is what I class as traumatic and inhumane.

If I had a chance to watch the man die who kidnapped, tortured and raped MY friend when I was a child then believe me I would be sitting in the front row. Her family are left with constant reminders of what she should have been achieving in life, but because of some evil animal she never had the chance to experience much. When someone close to you suffers this kind of death maybe your compassion for the perpetrator may waver just a little.

[SKfan2006]

if they couldn't find a good vein after a couple hours why didn't they just straight razor him?

[SixPins]

He kidnapped, raped, and murdered a fourteen year old girl. Was her punishment cruel and unusual? What about her pain and mental anguish? Her trauma? What happened to him is inhumane? This girl's humanity is six feet deep, it only exists in the withering hearts of her loved ones... I hope he spends every moment of waiting in panic. I hope her face haunts him until they find a vein.

This may sound harsh, but I don't care. My only sympathies are with those that were quaked by the dehumanization of Tryna Middleton.

[themadone06]

I was going to say throwing that old rope up and over a tree branch and hanging them high is still a quick and painless way if done correctly.

Ofcourse I also do not believe some of these murders and rapists deserve the painless death. Their victims weren't given such privileges.

[Roseasharn]

He kidnapped, raped, and murdered a fourteen year old girl. Was her punishment cruel and unusual? What about her pain and mental anguish? Her trauma? What happened to him is inhumane? This girl's humanity is six feet deep, it only exists in the withering hearts of her loved ones... I hope he spends every moment of waiting in panic. I hope her face haunts him until they find a vein.

This may sound harsh, but I don't care. My only sympathies are with those that were quaked by the dehumanization of Tryna Middleton.

Personally, I think they oughta just tie him up and then let her mother at him.
Or whoever she decides to give the honor to if she feels she can't do it.

After making my response in general to my feelings on capital punishment, I went and looked this case up.

This man got caught because he tried to kidnap someone else.

Someone else's kid could have just as easily ended up butchered and raped. But the mother in this case was around and resourceful.
Thank God.

Did you know Romell Broom spent some time in prison prior to this? For things like stealing cars and so on.

He also served less than half of a 25 year sentence for raping a 12 year old girl.

He should have already been spending his life in prison for that.

If he had been, Tryna Middleton would still be alive.

Instead, he served less than half of a 25 year sentence. LESS THAN HALF!

Maybe we should talk about THAT instead of capital punishment, if you want to talk about what is wrong with the justice system of the United States.

[Jaedpact]

I wonder if there are similar cases of persons being imprisoned for violent crimes in the other Western countries, and if so, how often are those persons released before serving thier full sentence and then how many of them become repeat offenders.
I suppose one argument is that US jails are over populated and that it is a matter of necisity to realase prisoners to the streets to see how they fair on thier own. I imagine then that we could address our over population problem by legalizing Marijuana, this would of course fly in the face of the privatised corrections and confinement industry. Fewer people in jail for a longer period of time doesn't make for or support the privatised jail industry as it exists currently in these great United States of America.

[littleone328]

Here I go again. I can't help myself! :cool2:

A couple of days ago, the state of Ohio tried and failed to execute convicted murderer Romell Broom for a crime committed 25 years ago, because they were unable to find a vein into which they could place the lethal injection. Apparently, the attempt to take his life lasted for two hours, by which time Broom was in pain and mental anguish which had reduced him to tears. I can barely comprehend how traumatising this event must have been for him. Of course, the date will simply be rescheduled, and Romell Broom can spend his final days fearing not only his death, but the possible repetition of the whole macabre episode.

The USA, or at least parts of it, stands alone amongst nations of the civilised Western world in sanctioning the death penalty, whether it be by hanging, electric chair, or lethal injection, and it seems, to me at least, to be a practice that reflects very badly on the society that endorses it. I personally spent many years campaigning, through the medium of letter-writing on behalf of Amnesty International, for an end to this barbaric remnant of the dark ages, but there is obviously still a long way to go.

"Now my waiting's almost over
As the final hour drags by
And I ain't about to tell you
That I don't deserve to die
But there's twenty-seven men here
Mostly black and brown and poor
Maybe most of them are guilty
Who are you to say for sure?
So when the preacher comes to get me
And they shave off all my hair
Could you take that long walk with me
Knowing Hell is waiting there?
Could you pull that switch yourself sir
With a sure and steady hand
And could you still tell yourself
That you're better than I am?"

Steve Earle "Billy Austin".

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" poor him did he think about the families he affected. I bet not.

[Damaris]

Over-crowding is a problem for most prisons in the country and I don't know what a "good" solution would be, although commuting the sentences of small-time and or non-violent offenders to community service sounds a reasonable start. But back to Romell Broom... He was actually sentenced to "7 to 25" years for the rape of the 12 year old, to be released at the board's discretion. He served nine years and was released in May 1984 with 2 years parole. Tryna was killed about four months later. According to the evidence outlined in the clemency report, Broom was most likely guilty of Tryna's rape and murder. What really surprised me was the note that Broom's sister was raped and murdered three months before his release in 1984. I can't imagine a person doing that to another family when they've experienced it themselves. But if he did what he was convicted of then I feel little remorse for him.

I would like to note again that a conviction does not preclude innocence. And that execution will never undo any crime. And that it rarely provides the closure that the victims' families seek.

I've worked in a sheriff's office, and in a courthouse; I've been in a courtroom more times than I care to admit and the miscarriages I've seen there, in person, are enough to make me physically ill. So despite cases like this, until improvements are made I'm going to stay on the side of the imprisoned, for the sake of the innocent among them. And for the (attempted) preservation of my own sanity and humanity.

[Roseasharn]

I've worked in a sheriff's office, and in a courthouse; I've been in a courtroom more times than I care to admit and the miscarriages I've seen there, in person, are enough to make me physically ill. So despite cases like this, until improvements are made I'm going to stay on the side of the imprisoned, for the sake of the innocent among them. And for the (attempted) preservation of my own sanity and humanity.

I think that is the strongest argument I've heard for getting rid of capital punishment and it is the one that comes up over and over when I'm trying to decide where I stand on it.

And I'm still trying to figure out how someone could rape a 12 year old girl and only get "7 to 25".
Where I live you can get 7 to 15 for punching someone in the face.
The law she is a mystery.

[tiger_fire]

I have no problem with the death penalty but only it they are guilty without a shadow of a doubt!
I don't feel any sorrow for a person who could inflict such pain and suffering to another human being even if it was a long time ago. I'm pretty sure that the pain and suffering of his victims family will never go away!
I feel very strongly about a life for life if they did indeed knowingly do the crime and continued till they were caught. I don't feel that their feelings should be taken into consideration at all, I think they lose that right when they take away another persons right to live.
Our country spends so much money on keeping people in prison, I think it would be good for the economy to bring back the death pealty and get rid of the worst of the worst!

[Bad Bear]

A lot of bloodthirsty individuals on here. Maybe it goes with being a Stephen King fan, or maybe it's down to a general hatred of humanity. Fortunately, in the UK, our politicians understand that whatever the mob wants is usually wrong, otherwise we'd still be having public hangings. I can't think of anything more barbaric than having a (usually black) inmate on death row for twenty years or more.

[themadone06]

A lot of bloodthirsty individuals on here. Maybe it goes with being a Stephen King fan, or maybe it's down to a general hatred of humanity. Fortunately, in the UK, our politicians understand that whatever the mob wants is usually wrong, otherwise we'd still be having public hangings. I can't think of anything more barbaric than having a (usually black) inmate on death row for twenty years or more.

I don't think anyone wants murderer and or rapists to spend twenty years on death row.

With the crimes these criminals have committed their death sentences should be dealt with as quickly as possible.

[Jaedpact]

I just wanted to correct the idea that "Overcrowding is a problem" That's the spin on Prisons. the truth is Over Crowding is BIG buisness. I mean google Privatised Prisons and I am certain you will understand.

[Damaris]

With the crimes these criminals have committed their death sentences should be dealt with as quickly as possible.

This may be little more than flogging a dead horse, but I feel obligated to say it one more time: the unfortunate question is whether or not they actually committed the crimes of which they were convicted. Many have been proven innocent ... after their executions. Death row inmates are skewed heavily toward minorities and toward those with limited funds. Would you like to lay your life in the hands of your public defendant? Who receives the same annual salary no matter how many cases he or she loses? Who is often criminally negligent in casework but won't be fired because the position is so hard to fill? Who is overloaded beyond capacity even under the best circumstances and who rarely manages to do more than physically show up? Because that's exactly what you can expect to get if you don't have a few hundred thousand dollars (or more) to spend on decent counsel. And you can guess how that might play out for a defendant charged with, say, murder.

[JayneH]

A bullet would have been cheaper and a lot quicker !

[JayneH]

:mad:
Here I go again. I can't help myself! :cool2:

I can barely comprehend how traumatising this event must have been for him.

more traumatising than the rape and murder of a young girl??? I think not.
:mad:

[Nero]

This may be little more than flogging a dead horse, but I feel obligated to say it one more time: the unfortunate question is whether or not they actually committed the crimes of which they were convicted. Many have been proven innocent ... after their executions. Death row inmates are skewed heavily toward minorities and toward those with limited funds. Would you like to lay your life in the hands of your public defendant? Who receives the same annual salary no matter how many cases he or she loses? Who is often criminally negligent in casework but won't be fired because the position is so hard to fill? Who is overloaded beyond capacity even under the best circumstances and who rarely manages to do more than physically show up? Because that's exactly what you can expect to get if you don't have a few hundred thousand dollars (or more) to spend on decent counsel. And you can guess how that might play out for a defendant charged with, say, murder.

I agree, certainly.

Many of us talk a big game about sympathizing with John Coffey after reading/watching the Green Mile.

But if John Coffey was real there would probably be a thread on here on the boards with most of us talking about putting him in front of a firing squad or letting the kid's parents have a go at him.

[Roseasharn]

I agree, certainly.

Many of us talk a big game about sympathizing with John Coffey after reading/watching the Green Mile.

But if John Coffey was real there would probably be a thread on here on the boards with most of us talking about putting him in front of a firing squad or letting the kid's parents have a go at him.

And now the John Coffey/Jesus metaphor is complete!

Know why?

Cause in my life, when I'm having a political debate and someone mentions Jesus, the debate ends rather quickly. In fact, if you mention Jesus, the Bible or Hitler, its over. Oh, and we all lose. Those are the rules, I'm afraid.

And now you have used John Coffey in an argument in such a way which effectively does the same thing for me.

It is FANTASTIC!

So, uh, thanks for that. I never would have thought I'd have seen the day!

[Nero]

And now the John Coffey/Jesus metaphor is complete!

Know why?

Cause in my life, when I'm having a political debate and someone mentions Jesus, the debate ends rather quickly. In fact, if you mention Jesus, the Bible or Hitler, its over. Oh, and we all lose. Those are the rules, I'm afraid.

And now you have used John Coffey in an argument in such a way which effectively does the same thing for me.

It is FANTASTIC!

So, uh, thanks for that. I never would have thought I'd have seen the day!


... wait... what? rofl? Is this The Revenge of the 4 Day Old Random Observation?

I already mentioned my feeling on this particular guy earlier in the thread... did you read back? Then somebody said something that caused me to voice a thought that occured to me, just thinking aloud.

It wasn't an argument, just throwing a thought out. Wanna uncuff me and let me out of the back of this TPD squad car now?

[Jaedpact]

Yeah Don't tase him Bro! Besides He can break these cuffs.

[Roseasharn]

... wait... what? rofl? Is this The Revenge of the 4 Day Old Random Observation?

I already mentioned my feeling on this particular guy earlier in the thread... did you read back? Then somebody said something that caused me to voice a thought that occured to me, just thinking aloud.

It wasn't an argument, just throwing a thought out. Wanna uncuff me and let me out of the back of this TPD squad car now?

The only serious part of the response was that you completed the John Coffey/Jesus metaphor for me.

Look, where else but on the SKMB was someone going to complete that metaphor for me? And I couldn't resist pointing out that you did when you did because it may never happen again!
It actually was fantastic.
And it made me giggle.
Please blame the medium if it felt snide. It actually was genuine glee that caused me to post my response.

And sorry it took so long for me to post it, I don't get online so much these days.
And yes of course, I read both your previous responses.

[PatInTheHat]

I don't think anyone wants murderer and or rapists to spend twenty years on death row.

With the crimes these criminals have committed their death sentences should be dealt with as quickly as possible.

Do you have any clue as to just how many inmates have been exonerated through DNA testing just in the last few years, that have spent a decade or more on death row?
Just how many innocents have the courts in say, Texas murdered do ya reckon?
They practically have an assembly line.

The fact is, a very large percentage of folks that have been convicted of heinous death penalty crimes, have been convicted because of simple eye witness testimony...absolutely proven to be one of the most unreliable form of evidence.

Thankfully, more and more conviction are now being signed sealed and delivered through science and not eye witness accounts, but don't believe everything you see on CSI Possumbump.

[Nero]

The only serious part of the response was that you completed the John Coffey/Jesus metaphor for me.

Look, where else but on the SKMB was someone going to complete that metaphor for me? And I couldn't resist pointing out that you did when you did because it may never happen again!
It actually was fantastic.
And it made me giggle.
Please blame the medium if it felt snide. It actually was genuine glee that caused me to post my response.

And sorry it took so long for me to post it, I don't get online so much these days.
And yes of course, I read both your previous responses.

oh ok in that case YOU ARE MOST WELCOME!

my bad on misinterpreting what you said, my most humble apologies at riling up @ you. can you forgive me?? I am not that touchy normally i swearz

[themadone06]

Do you have any clue as to just how many inmates have been exonerated through DNA testing just in the last few years, that have spent a decade or more on death row?
Just how many innocents have the courts in say, Texas murdered do ya reckon?
They practically have an assembly line.

The fact is, a very large percentage of folks that have been convicted of heinous death penalty crimes, have been convicted because of simple eye witness testimony...absolutely proven to be one of the most unreliable form of evidence.

Thankfully, more and more conviction are now being signed sealed and delivered through science and not eye witness accounts, but don't believe everything you see on CSI Possumbump.

Never did I say that there should not be rules stipulating when someone should be sentenced to death. I personally feel to have a death sentence there should be at least three eye witnesses. I understand that there are some people that have been exonerated by DNA. That is great and most are now living off millions of dollars the government owed them for being wrongfully accused. There have also been people who have probably been put to death even though they are innocent. It is sad, and thats why there should be set laws about who faces the death penalty.

I am just saying that if a person is proven guilty, 100% guilty with DNA evidence and the backup of several witnesses and other evidences that they should have to pay for their crime. If you murder someone in the first degree then you should have to pay with your life. If you rape someone, particularly a child, I hope you get twice the punishment in prison. Jail and sentencing today is already to cushy and lenient on inmates, and that is why they do not learn a lesson.

[themadone06]

Possumbump.

I forgot about this. Why does this mean? Is it an insult? I've never heard this word before.

[Kymatty]

I believe in the death penalty for the most extreme crimes against a person; IE rape or murder. Now that we have the technology, it shouldn't be to hard to prove if it was said person or not (is there was evidence left).
I don't believe that someone who took another's life in anger (or in some cases just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time) should be allowed to live. Why should we, as american citizens pay for this person to spend the rest of their life in a cell? Eye for an eye

[PatInTheHat]

Never did I say that there should not be rules stipulating when someone should be sentenced to death. I personally feel to have a death sentence there should be at least three eye witnesses. I understand that there are some people that have been exonerated by DNA. That is great and most are now living off millions of dollars the government owed them for being wrongfully accused. There have also been people who have probably been put to death even though they are innocent. It is sad, and thats why there should be set laws about who faces the death penalty.


I am just saying that if a person is proven guilty, 100% guilty with DNA evidence and the backup of several witnesses and other evidences that they should have to pay for their crime. If you murder someone in the first degree then you should have to pay with your life. If you rape someone, particularly a child, I hope you get twice the punishment in prison. Jail and sentencing today is already to cushy and lenient on inmates, and that is why they do not learn a lesson.

No you didn't exactly say, well, all of that, but your original post read more like a sound bite..no offense.
And there is no "probably" about it, we'll never know the extent as to the untold numbers of poor saps executed for a myriad of reason..some possibly more understandable than others, absolutely none forgivable.
There are in fact "set laws" varied state by state and at the federal level...who by the way, tend to execute in a most steamlined manner.
I would like to add, if you think incarceration is cushy, you've obviously never been or have ever known anyone who has, but that's another discussion.


I forgot about this. Why does this mean? Is it an insult? I've never heard this word before.

No, this isn't an insult, it was more of a reference point.
(I'll apologize if I came off this way..I often do..kay sarah sarah..see?..oh my word, I can't help myself..I may need a program..think?...see?:rolleyes:)
Every jurisdiction is different, every state has it's own laws, various court sytems don't proceed in the same manner, though procedures may be similar, and every criminal investigation is, or should be, unique.
Prosecutions should always be about absolute truth, it hardly ever is, the defense too...I see it as who ever tells the best most convincing lies, usually wins, so what does that tell us, except of course you get what you pay for, and the poor can't...not many millionaires on death row (percentage wise that is), I'll wager a big toe to a donut (custard filled..Yum! the donut, not my toe...I do know the proper usage of soap puhleeez...though that's not to say my big toes ain't yummy:oo:..no, I wouldn't know) on that one.

The legal profession, for the most part, considers wins verses losses as the criteria for measuring success...truth & justice has virtually nothing to do with it.
Most folks don't really give a hoot about the presumption of innocence..,that is until they sit in front a jury of their "peers".
If your sitting there, well hell, you must have done something.
Prosecuters take advantage of that, as well they should I suppose.
It's all the other what else's they often have a propensity to do for a "win" that's disturbing, and no not all of 'em, not even close to most I would hope, but certainly enough.
A boat load of district attorneys, have made their career bones on wrongful capital convictions, what do we do with that?

The thing is, in the Possumbump's, the Podunks, and the Bug Tussles (that's actually the name of a real town..like Frog Bottom:biggrin2:), many of the small places is what I'm sayin', they don't have the money or resources that the Las Vegas's, Miami's or New York New York (it's a wonderful town, the people do stuff in holes in the ground..or so I hear...sorry:down:) "C.S.I's" do...hell, these days, the big towns don't have the cash anymore either.
And what's more, communities that are well to do enough that have that advantage, it ain't no where even close like the portrayal's on TV.
(I'm not & was not, suggesting that's necessarily where you may get your information either..it was just a reference point, 'k:wink2:?)

The odds of 100% sure bet guilty as charged capital punishment convictions, isn't as large as most folks would like..me included.
Unfortunately, there are waaayy too many who don't care one way or the other, as long as someone "pays".
If a few (now if someone would please define few please...what would be an acceptabe percentage?) innocents die, it's for the greater good damn it..kill 'em quick, the ends justify the means, full speed ahead!
And that does indeed scare the ever lovin' crap outta me!

[Damaris]

Never did I say that there should not be rules stipulating when someone should be sentenced to death.
There are rules. They are called "laws." And they can only work as well as the system they were designed both by and for.


I understand that there are some people that have been exonerated by DNA. That is great and most are now living off millions of dollars the government owed them for being wrongfully accused.
The government doesn't "owe" those who have been wrongfully convicted and later exonerated. In cases where those people have sued for reparations (and many don't), they generally are awarded less than $250,000. It still sounds like quite a bit but it's rather difficult to put a price on years taken from your life, the hardships the process brings to you and your family, and a history that will follow you to the grave. How much is a decade of your life worth? What value do you ascribe wrongfully stripped freedom, not being able to sleep in your own bed, and the inabillity to bathe without the constant fear of gang-rape?


There have also been people who have probably been put to death even though they are innocent.
There is no "probably" to it.


...thats why there should be set laws about who faces the death penalty.
And again, there are. But all laws have limits, and even lawmakers with our best interests at heart (assuming they do exist) cannot write laws that solve every problem or operate perfectly in every case.

I'm not picking on you, honest. I just think these are common assumptions that many people make without stepping back to see how faulted they can be.