Pennywise/Crimson King connection?

[CruelPuppet]

Hi, I remember seeing a theory somewhere that Pennywise and the Crimson King were one in the same. I can see some connections.
Pennywise is actually a giant spider. CK's 'son' is a spider, plus the fictional Stephen King saw a horde of red spiders in a barn.
When looking into spider-Pennywise's eyes, he partially saw its TRUE true form, some kind of reddish shape.
I haven't finished Insomnia yet, but they both inhabited Derry.
Not sure how canonical they are, but I BELIEVE that in the Dark Tower comics, CK is portrayed as a giant red spider.

[Robert Gray]

The true form of "It" is not actually a giant spider. That is merely the shape the human mind could come closest to. More to the point, "It" doesn't share the Crimson King's ambitions. "It" is already a God. It already perceives the cosmos on a level above and beyond. We get a direct look into the mind of it, without deception. It only wants to eat and sleep and eat again. The Crimson King is an ant compared to It.

Now, you could make the argument that the Crimson King, Dandelo, and in effect Mordred are spawn (Mordred once removed) of the death of "It," but they are very clearly not Pennywise. The issue is one of character motivation. The issue is one of levels of power. I might be convinced that Dandelo and the Crimson King (and many others like them) are spawn of It, little spiderlings that scurried off into the dark, avoiding destruction by Ben's boot heel. It is clear the lair of It (far beneath Derry) is a thinny, and the little spiderling could have ended up anywhere in Sai King's multiverse. This theory certainly fits Dandelo (at least so far with the available evidene).

Dandelo simply appeared in Roland's world at some point, set up shop, exercised cunning to get itself a robot helper (which it named Stuttering Bill), and began to eat. It functioned very much like a vastly weaker "It." Dandelo could use glamours to disguise himself and the world around him. The fact that it appears briefly as a psychotic clown also lends itself to the theory that it is related to Robert "It" Gray. It is likely the monster's spawn retain some knowledge of the death of its parent. Moreover, it makes perfect sense that this spawn would be nothing but a weaker (while still dangerous) wisp of a shadow of its ancient sire.

In short (already too late for that), it is more likely that the destruction of It was exactly as advertised. She was the mother of monsters however and some (or many) of her brood live on to plague the multiverse. I think Dandelo is certainly one such entity. I think it more than likely that the Crimson King is one such being as well.

[sam peebles]

There are certainly similarities, but I, personally, do not believe they are one in the same. In the comics, the Crimson King is alternately shown as a large spider/man hybrid, and then just a large man with strange protrusions from his skull.

Pennywise's MO and the Crimson King's MO are too different to be the same being.

[CruelPuppet]

Hm, okay, good points.

[Smikes]

There were so many similarities between Pennywise and The Crimson King in Insomnia that I thought they were the same character. From WIKI:


IT:

It's natural form exists in a realm beyond the physical, which It calls the "deadlights".

Insomnia:

Picking a traumatic childhood memory from Ralph's mind, the Crimson King manifests itself as a monstrous catfish. This incarnation of the Crimson King is wounded by the power of Ralph's determination and ability to overcome his fear. The wounded, enraged Crimson King is sucked into the Deadlights (which is also described as "It's", the title character's true form in Stephen King's novel of the same name).

I would NOT say their MO is that different. Pennwise would take the shape of people's greatest fear, The King in Insomnia also did this.

But the "deadlights" seem to be the main connection between the two villains.

Another thing to consider is The Turtle. The Turtle is said to have given birth to the universe itself. In It, it is described as the enemy of Pennywise. We also know that it is the ultimate goal of the Crimson King to destroy the universe. The scrimshaw turtle in The Dark Tower is used to defeat The Crimson King's forces. We can surmise, then, that the Turtle is also the enemy of The Crimson King.

Ultimately, the important thing to remember about Insomnia is that when it comes to Dark Tower mythos, it is "unreliable"...also from WIKI:


Patrick Danville returns in The Dark Tower VII. In Insomnia he describes both the Crimson King and "another king" named Roland being in his dreams. The continuity present in Insomnia, however, is different. The most obvious examples include the Crimson King not being trapped at the top of the Dark Tower (when he is actually trapped on a third floor balcony) and Patrick Danville, while ultimately defeating the Crimson King, not dying while saving two men. This is acknowledged in The Dark Tower when the Tet Corporation give Roland a copy of Insomnia. But he chooses not to read it, thinking it feels tricksy and reminiscent of a thinny.

So, it stands to reason that any connection between Pennywise and the Crimson King from Insomnia is also unreliable.

I originally theorized that It would be one of the beasts Roland would have to confront at the Tower itself (remember talk of the guardians of the Tower?), but as it turned out such was not the case. Anyway, an intriguing topic, to be sure.

Live, love, laugh & be happy,
Smikes

[Rush1031]

Ive got to say, the reason that I found this thread was that I was searching to see if there was anyone else who saw the connection between IT and the CK, lol. I have NO idea how I could think I was the only one.....

At any rate, the theory of the CK being an offspring of IT was one I had never considered. It definitely makes sense! We know that shape shifting is a time honored tradition in Derry, and that both creatures (IT and CK) share many similarities. What we dont know is whether the differences were written to trip us up a bit. I would like to think that King already knew where he was going with the Tower long before we actually got to the last page of DT7, and IT was just as tricksy to us as Insomnia felt to Roland. I mean, we even get to see Gan (the Turtle) in IT, so there is an obvious connection. However, I also truly believed that George Lucas knew where he was going with the Star Wars saga and we all know how that turned out...Heres also a quick theory to chew on - We know that pretty much everything/everybody in the Towerverse has at least one twin. Is it possible that IT is a twin of the CK?

[bluesology]

In the terms of the "two docs" that explain things to Ralph - I think that IT was on a higher level of existence than the Crimson King. While CK was definitely powerful, IT was infinitely more so - so much that it couldn't care less about getting power or pursuing any kind of personal ambitions. IT was powerful enough to just exist and do whatever it wanted - Feed and amuse itself.

And in terms of the similarities, I don't think it's quite accurate to say that the Crimson King inhabited Derry - he just made an appearance there.

[Ahhcrap]

I like the idea of the CK being IT's spawn because I have a feeling that Pennwise would not appreciate the Tower being destroyed . . . if the beams fall then what would IT feed on? If anything, Roland might have found a strange ally as such in IT. Quite frankly I think if Pennywise had known of Randall Flagg (in any of the wheres and whens) I think Pennywise would have stompled Flagg down because he's ruining all the fun. Pennywise was powerfull but he was also very childish (probably due to his prey) and as such anything that annoys him he would've thrown away. Just a though.

[Bucky Dough Matzo]

The Insomnia Crimson King may be Pennywise.

[Robert Gray]

The Insomnia Crimson King may be Pennywise.

He most certainly is not. The cosmic entity that sometimes when under the name Pennywise and sometimes Robert Gray (among countless others) is not the Crimson King. It had very narrow, personal drives which did not include multidimensional conquest or the end of the multiverse for the purposes of recreating it in another image. It was so far removed from the level of the Tower upon which the Crimson King operates as to make this line of logic moot.

[Mr. Jabot]

I was struggling a bit with the concept of this creature the other day, ended up contradicting myself a lot because I'd forgotten a lot about the Dark Tower. I'm still pretty sure about some of what I said, but upon organizing my thoughts, I came across a theory that relates to the Dark Tower.
I remember reading somewhere that IT and The Crimson King, while not the same entity, are both essential oppositions to order within the universe. As in, they both bring chaos, while The Turtle, as well as the other beam guardians, bring the opposite.

That would make IT one of the demon elementals, assigned to the Outer Beam. Thus, the Turtle is in alliance with the "White." IT, while still assumed to be a cosmic entity, would be one step below the Crimson King (as far as servitude, at the very least), but still extremely powerful. If IT is more powerful than the Crimson King, I suppose its allegiance would originate from CK's goal involving the Prim, etc. CK has a bit more flexibility.

This would account for Insomnia's "Deadlights" sighting. If IT were to be assumed in "cahoots" with the Crimson King, IT may have assisted him near the end of the novel by snatching him out of Derry. I assumed, from the way I was interpreting that particular passage, that the deadlights were not coming directly from the Crimson King, but instead from the dimensional tear above him.

As Robert Gray stated, IT's line of thinking was completely different than CK's - thus, what would remain unexplained within this line of reasoning is the fact that IT was not aware of any other cosmic entity besides itself and the Turtle. I'm not going to venture a guess at why this is (in relation to this theory), since the concept of IT being the beams' antithesis to the Turtle is only speculation to begin with.

[Dobruk]

Um, I may be wrong, but didn't the Crimson King make a reference to It at some point? I read that on Wikipedia, and I think it was for a book in the DT series that I haven't gotten to yet.

[floating_balloon]

I know this thread is quite old by the looks of it, but I found it on google and found fascinating. I personally am very disappointed that IT didn't make an appearance e in the Dark Tower series. There's indications that IT survived the Loosers Club in Dreamcatcher and Tommyknockers and this year I was hoping for a sequel novel perhaps, something explaining the Deadlight connection with certain villainous creatures in the King universe.

I LOVE the idea that the CK and other deadlight related entities are spiderlings that scuttled away after the looser's confrontation with IT, and maybe the surviving Pennywise is meerly a spiderling taking on the pesona of it's mother.

I hope that the deadlights return to earth possibly causing another cataclysmic event in 2012 like when it first arrived. Or that IT awakes as 2012 is around about the time IT wakes and feeds again. Or at least King explains the relationship between CK and IT in a novel soon.

[gilligan421]

in the comics sk reveals that the king is the son of arther eld (my spelling sucks) and a creature from the outside of our universe (ie it who was female). and in the second part of it the adults find it's eggs and the architech sayes he thinks he killed them all. so i say that there was one surviving egg and that became the crimson king who then grew up in dairy or returned after he was older to do the stuff in insomnia.