Pennywise/Crimson King connection?

[CruelPuppet]

Hi, I remember seeing a theory somewhere that Pennywise and the Crimson King were one in the same. I can see some connections.
Pennywise is actually a giant spider. CK's 'son' is a spider, plus the fictional Stephen King saw a horde of red spiders in a barn.
When looking into spider-Pennywise's eyes, he partially saw its TRUE true form, some kind of reddish shape.
I haven't finished Insomnia yet, but they both inhabited Derry.
Not sure how canonical they are, but I BELIEVE that in the Dark Tower comics, CK is portrayed as a giant red spider.

[Robert Gray]

The true form of "It" is not actually a giant spider. That is merely the shape the human mind could come closest to. More to the point, "It" doesn't share the Crimson King's ambitions. "It" is already a God. It already perceives the cosmos on a level above and beyond. We get a direct look into the mind of it, without deception. It only wants to eat and sleep and eat again. The Crimson King is an ant compared to It.

Now, you could make the argument that the Crimson King, Dandelo, and in effect Mordred are spawn (Mordred once removed) of the death of "It," but they are very clearly not Pennywise. The issue is one of character motivation. The issue is one of levels of power. I might be convinced that Dandelo and the Crimson King (and many others like them) are spawn of It, little spiderlings that scurried off into the dark, avoiding destruction by Ben's boot heel. It is clear the lair of It (far beneath Derry) is a thinny, and the little spiderling could have ended up anywhere in Sai King's multiverse. This theory certainly fits Dandelo (at least so far with the available evidene).

Dandelo simply appeared in Roland's world at some point, set up shop, exercised cunning to get itself a robot helper (which it named Stuttering Bill), and began to eat. It functioned very much like a vastly weaker "It." Dandelo could use glamours to disguise himself and the world around him. The fact that it appears briefly as a psychotic clown also lends itself to the theory that it is related to Robert "It" Gray. It is likely the monster's spawn retain some knowledge of the death of its parent. Moreover, it makes perfect sense that this spawn would be nothing but a weaker (while still dangerous) wisp of a shadow of its ancient sire.

In short (already too late for that), it is more likely that the destruction of It was exactly as advertised. She was the mother of monsters however and some (or many) of her brood live on to plague the multiverse. I think Dandelo is certainly one such entity. I think it more than likely that the Crimson King is one such being as well.

[sam peebles]

There are certainly similarities, but I, personally, do not believe they are one in the same. In the comics, the Crimson King is alternately shown as a large spider/man hybrid, and then just a large man with strange protrusions from his skull.

Pennywise's MO and the Crimson King's MO are too different to be the same being.

[CruelPuppet]

Hm, okay, good points.

[Smikes]

There were so many similarities between Pennywise and The Crimson King in Insomnia that I thought they were the same character. From WIKI:


IT:

It's natural form exists in a realm beyond the physical, which It calls the "deadlights".

Insomnia:

Picking a traumatic childhood memory from Ralph's mind, the Crimson King manifests itself as a monstrous catfish. This incarnation of the Crimson King is wounded by the power of Ralph's determination and ability to overcome his fear. The wounded, enraged Crimson King is sucked into the Deadlights (which is also described as "It's", the title character's true form in Stephen King's novel of the same name).

I would NOT say their MO is that different. Pennwise would take the shape of people's greatest fear, The King in Insomnia also did this.

But the "deadlights" seem to be the main connection between the two villains.

Another thing to consider is The Turtle. The Turtle is said to have given birth to the universe itself. In It, it is described as the enemy of Pennywise. We also know that it is the ultimate goal of the Crimson King to destroy the universe. The scrimshaw turtle in The Dark Tower is used to defeat The Crimson King's forces. We can surmise, then, that the Turtle is also the enemy of The Crimson King.

Ultimately, the important thing to remember about Insomnia is that when it comes to Dark Tower mythos, it is "unreliable"...also from WIKI:


Patrick Danville returns in The Dark Tower VII. In Insomnia he describes both the Crimson King and "another king" named Roland being in his dreams. The continuity present in Insomnia, however, is different. The most obvious examples include the Crimson King not being trapped at the top of the Dark Tower (when he is actually trapped on a third floor balcony) and Patrick Danville, while ultimately defeating the Crimson King, not dying while saving two men. This is acknowledged in The Dark Tower when the Tet Corporation give Roland a copy of Insomnia. But he chooses not to read it, thinking it feels tricksy and reminiscent of a thinny.

So, it stands to reason that any connection between Pennywise and the Crimson King from Insomnia is also unreliable.

I originally theorized that It would be one of the beasts Roland would have to confront at the Tower itself (remember talk of the guardians of the Tower?), but as it turned out such was not the case. Anyway, an intriguing topic, to be sure.

Live, love, laugh & be happy,
Smikes