would like views/discussion on my theory-Spoilers!!!

[jenifer]

My husband and I discuss this all the time, and I can't seem to find anyone, on any board, who has talked about this. The whole thing came about on my second read of the series: The Gunslinger, Chapter Three, Subsection II-Roland's dream of Susan and Jake while in Mejis. (You may want to refer to this small section) Of course, reading this the first time, I had no idea what was going on, and I got so caught up in the story, I basically had forgotten this dream and didn't know to think to myself 'why would Jake be in Mejis?'. Reading it the second time (the dream) put a whole new twist on things:
First, I'm certain that Jake is Roland's son: Time and again, we read how Roland and Jake felt love for eachother as a father and son would. Roland was obviously having a dream about a prior journey to the Dark Tower. One could guess that each time Roland goes back, he will get something else right (as Roland has the horn at the end). According to this dream, Susan is burning and Jake is looking out a window (the same window where 'she taught him to be a man'). Susan is screaming about Jake, and Roland goes crazy from witnessing both of them die. Now, I am assuming that this dream was from the very prior journey, and that would indicate Roland and Susan were able to conceal their relationship for a lot longer than in Wizard and Glass, because in Wizard and Glass, Susan burns at the Charyou tree along with her unborn child--JAKE.
Okay, I hope everyone is still reading this.
Second, one would think that saving Susan in Wizard and Glass is the right thing to do. But, I don't think so. Roland must fight and bring Farson's men into the thinny while Susan is being burned-Roland must continue on to the Dark Tower. If Roland were to repeat the previous journey of saving Susan, the exact same outcome would have happened (the dream). I believe that Roland actually goes crazy and the journey ends there.
Now, in the journey that we all read, Susan is burned alive, Roland kills his mother, and Roland doesn't bother to pick up the horn at Jericho Hill. Again, we think that all of these are mistakes that Roland needs to get right, however; because the ending of the book is the beginning (again) but Roland is carrying the horn, that leads me to believe that Roland's only mistake at that point in time, was leaving the horn behind. Not forgetting that at that point in time Roland has already been to Mejis, Susan has died, Roland's mother is dead, and Gilead fell.
All of this leads me to believe that the only thing Roland got wrong in the journey we read was not bothering to pick up the horn. Everything else must still happen, including, letting go of Jake. Roland must draw all three (Eddie, Susannah, and Jake)...everything needs to happen that happened.
But of course, the greatest question still lingers: what in the world happens when Roland gets to the tower with that horn???
Any thoughts on this? Feel free to disagree, but be nice, please, haha.
Jenifer

[aptpupil]

Well, I confidently predict that we have today's Gold Medal winner for the most long-winded thread starter!

My congratulations, and when I have a few spare hours after the kids go to bed, I promise to read it! :laugh:

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

The idea that Roland is dreaming of his previous circuit at that point in The Gunslinger is a really interesting one; next time I read DT I'll look closely at that, you've tweaked my curiosity.

Meanwhile, as to your theory... I've only read the series once, so I'll defer to anyone who's given it more attention and more careful attention, but my opinion... um... A lot of people want to believe that picking up the Horn is the one final detail that he needs to get right in order to succeed in his quest and bring the cycle to an end, but I think that might only be wishful thinking on their parts, that they want to believe that because it brings the possibility of closure nearer.

My own feeling, not based on anything concrete except for ideas about the ethical basis of Roland's actions, has been that he's going to have to repeat the cycle until he learns not to sacrifice other people (other beings) to his ambitions... going back all the way to the moment when he qualified as a gunslinger, if not farther.

As for your last question, what happens when he succeeds in entering the Tower without being forced to begin a new cycle, I'm torn between two hypotheses:

#1) Maybe as he goes through this eternity of "reincarnations" (as it were), improving himself a little bit each time, he'll reach a point where he's improved enough that he can do the things necessary to protect the beams without feeling compelled to "master" the Tower itself and he won't even need to go in. Or

#2) He goes in, last cycle, completely perfected, and he becomes one with Gar.

But,, of course, I could be wrong in any of the above. It'll be interesting to see what other opinions come from this post, I'll be watching...

We all float down here...

[Sister Jenna]

I feel really ignorent as I've read the DTS at least three times (it's my favourite) yet never really thought about Rolands previous journeys. Next time I will thats a promise!
As to what happens when he gets to the tower with the horn, here's my humble opinion.
I believe he'll go back to the desert. I think he has to no matter what because ka is a wheel and the journey IS the tower. I think if Roland ever did get to the top the tower would fall and all worlds would crumble into the void.
As I said, just my humble opinion.

[Bluey Lunger]

what are dreams? reality? or the mind's attempt to make something of a reality that could come or has been? the collar is significant. suggests to me all that predestination stuff. roland gets a second chance w/jake, the first chance on the railway (some more predestination seems like, or fate) but roland steps over him rather than help him and that was all she wrote for jake. roland is responsible for both susan and jake but he was so hung up on his "predestination" that sacrificing their life for his is acceptable to him.

i like the idea of them being at the window. his mother, at the window, when roland and the others head out of town. roland doesn't acknowledge her. susan at her window, roland starts to wave, to acknowledge her...and he stops, doesn't he? he even saw an echo of marten and his mother in his doings w/susan, and though a writer might look out a window and see a garden he never noticed before, roland is too blinded by his own ambitions and susan's life is sacrificed to his quest for the tower.

i don't think jake is roland's son. jake becomes like a son to roland. maybe his dream is some sort of attempt by his mind to get that stubborn part of him to look through a different window and see something other than his quest. w/jake, we know he changed, he gets a second chance w/jake. perhaps if susan hadn't been sacrificed, the outcome w/jake would have been different.

[jenifer]

What you said about Roland's dream being an attempt to look through a different window..my other thought on the dream is that it was a dream because Roland feels guilty about what he is about to do to Jake...Because in the back of his mind, Roland knows what he's about to do and/or remembers what he's done.

Also-one other thing about the father-son possibility. In the keystone world, Jake is Eddie's brother. And, I seem to remember in one of the books, that Eddie and Cuthbert are twin brothers. In different worlds, a lot of these people are related, so that is another reason why I think Jake is Roland's son-when taking everything into consideration.