Racism in SK books

[shangirl]

So I have an African- American friend who refuses to read Stephen King because he swears that he's racist. He points out that any story he has ever tried to read says the "N" word at least once. So my view is that it's not the author that's the racist it's the characters in the story. I mean really nothing says backwoods Redneck ignorance like using the "N" word. (Henry from IT for instance.) My friend swears that Mr. King could make this point without the racial slurs but I disagree, what do you all think?

[BlueCeleste]

I think artist should have artistic license over some offensive word, now most writer have to use that kind of word to demonstrate what kind of person the character is.
I remember he said somewhere in ‘On Writing’ he said it is a job of a writer to show, not just to say, now as a writer I have used the C word quite often to demonstrate misogynistic behavior; as a woman, no one is going to accuse me of being misogynist, but if it were a man who did that, then some people, might be offended.
I don’t know what you can tell your friend to make him think otherwise, if that is his belief, then too bad, he’s missing out on a lot of transformational writing. Personally I find it sad that some have cut his books off cause they think the content might be offensive, perhaps they should give it a chance and then they can see it really isn’t, it trying to show us a true world that we live in, yeah maybe there’s monster strolling about, but isn’t that the way our world works? Just the monster on earth have human faces instead of creepy ones.
Anyway I don’t use the N word because I’m not writing about racism or showing racist characters but if I were, I’d use the N word, just to show. And trust me, those words have never passed my lips, not even the C word.

[mercop14]

I don't think Kings a racist. Some of his characters may be but that doesnt mean he is. Also he often shows African Americans in a very positive light such as Mother Abagail in the Stand.

[Bryan James]

Your friend, unfortunately, has his head up his ass...and he likes it there. You can't pull it out for him. Stop trying.

There are other books than these.

BJS

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

Some people believe that certain words have to be forbidden because they're innately toxic and there's no positive or neutral way ever to use them. Other people don't believe that.

Me, I don't. I agree with you that King's displaying the racism of his characters, not exposing racist ideas of his own, but your friend evidently doesn't want to see it that way.

If you're white, shangirl, IMO it's not up to you to try to 'correct' your friend's thinking, but some strong evidence of King's positive, progressive attitude toward race issues might be... og... the section of It where Mike Hanlon's father describes his experience int he army in the 1930's, or the book Bag Of Bones, the whole plot of which deals with an appealing, almost heroic black character and a horrifyingly ugly racist incident that ends up having supernatural overtones. Or The Green Mile, with a heroic black character at the center... or...

We all float down here.

[aullori]

by that simplistic standard I guess Twain and Steinbeck would also be racist...

It's a shame really your pal is missing out on some good work.

[the_last_gunslinger]

I think you are fair in your assessment. In real life, people say words like that, and even though I don't agree with those particular character's sentiments, I find it adds realism to the stories. No one wants to read a book where every character is a model citizen who is whole-heartedly loved by all. Racism exists, and often times it is quite prevalent. King is often able to capture such people in his stories. Some may look at it as unnecessary or racist, but I see it as a good author painting an accurate portrait of the diverse thoughts and philosophies that exist in the world today.

[cfin5256]

IMHO, while I respect your friends opinion, I feel he's somewhat off-base. The N word in SK's works has nothing to do with the author, but everything to do with the character. One of the most successful aspect's of SK's writing is his ability to make his character's real and believable; almost like you can close your eyes and watch em walk and talk. Many of his books have been set in times or locations that, right or wrong, had the N word as a normal part of the vernacular. Sure, you can dance around the word if you like, but to me it would lessen the brilliant characterizations SK uses. To be blunt, if the word is truly offensive to your friend, SK is probably not the author for him anyway.

[Bluey Lunger]

i think the artist left the arms off the statue for a reason. naw, wasn't a lack of marble. the artist was reflecting life. we are all waiting for the statue to be given back her arms.
that, along with the long wait for the american boy to take off beauty's clothing and get on top of her. buy your friend a shark puppy cd and tell him to chill, don't be so serious, kick his shoes off and wiggle his toes from time to time.

[Sweet One]

I think it is in the context of which the word is used. It is most often used to show raicsm in an ugly light. But even if SK could make his point without using it, it hardly makes him a racist. Detta Walker says things like "White honky muhfuh." Does that make SK anti-white? King often challenges racism in his work. Take the Green Mile for instance.

It is true that some of SK's African American characters resemble the American stereoetype of the "magical Negro", whether King consciously did this or not. Dick Halloran and Speedy Parker come to mind. Some call this stereotype "racist", as it is mainly form a white perspecitve, but I disagree as this stereotype is generally a positive one. It does tend to view the Black man is "other", and yet at the same time quentisenntially American. John Coffey may qualify as representative of this stereotype, but if so, it's obvious King is using this to challenge racism, as Coffey is easily the most symnpathetic character in the novel. It is obvious that there is social comentary here of the tendency for the Black male to be wrongly blamed for crimes.

There is the troubling instance of the "black man" in Carrie who may represent the devil. This was not intended as a racial slur, as King is not talking about race. But at the same time, there are other examples of the devil in the form of a "black man" One such case is in Nathantial Hawthorne's "The Devil and Tom Walker." Again this is not racially Black, but there may be a darker version to the "magical "negro" stereotype that is at work here, and the authors may be expressing this unknowingly.

It's almost amusing how some authors ar attacked for alleged racism in their works are not racist, but others who truely are racist are seldom criticized. An example of this is Robert E. Howard of Conan fame. He was a product of his time, but he also had some personal beleifs of his own that were very racist. MarK Twain is often criticized for the "racism" in Huck Finn, even thouhg he was challeenging slavery, not for his intentional, deliberate, slams against Native American Indians in Tom Sawyer, which were intened to counter James Fenmore Cooper's idealization of American Natives.

[Kick121]

I really really hope this is some kind of joke bc that is just so stupid!! People these days think EVERYTHING is racist..That like saying I wont watch House of Payne or Meet the Browns or a predomiantly black show bc they make white people jokes.

[BTRNYC]

I don't think any Stephen King book is for the easily offended...

[Srbo]

Really ?

Tell your friend to get over himself, that is just plain ridicoulus...

Steve a racist..man, if that wasn`t a sad statement, I might have laughed, but it`s so sad and dumb, sorry to say, that I can`t laugh...

[ChaseTx]

He uses the word to indicate characteristics of BAD people and flaws in neutral characters. He couldn't effectively depict a racist without using some racial slurs and speech, could he?

it's pretty dramatic of your friend (no offense) to label SK a racist because he has racist characters. Does he not watch movies that have racial slurs either?

my girlfriend is black, and she's the reason i started reading SK... she loves his work

[OhmyGod!]

Because he wrote about a child murderer (IT) or a manic depressed nut bag (annie) or whomever, doesn't mean stephen king is like that.

He's just being realistic. I am gay and there's a lot of 'gay insulting stuff' in his novels too. But that's the way real life is, isn't it. I understand that it's not nice to read sometimes. But the people who do that kind of stuff in his novels end up (most of the time) dead in a horrible way (yay!).

And do not forget: Stephen King doesn't only show the dark site of society! There's also a lot of positive stuff.

[aptpupil]

Hi Shannon.

It's a tricky one, and I've had an argument over racism before on this forum. I think that SK, as a writer, has to create credible characters, and a certain proportion of people out there DO have racist leanings which can show through in the things that they say.

Yes, an author could disguise an inherent racism by assigning the words and thoughts to his characters, but I don't think that this is what's happening with SK. He's simply trying to make his characters more believable, by giving them flaws and prejudices that exist in real life.

I think that your friend sounds pretty determined to be offended, IMHO, but he has the right to avoid SK if he wishes to. As a writer myself, I could steer clear of objectionable comments and bad language, but I don't, because it would remove an important element of realism from my stories.

[Robert Gray]

This is a rather humerous viewpoint on your friend's part. I'm cruel myself. I'd let him wallow in his own stupidity. Sai King could not make his point truthfully by cutting words of hate and racism when portraying racist characters. My favorite of King's works is "It," and without a doubt there are some strong bigots in there. The work shows them to be little monsters. This could not be done without truth.

[Teddy Duchamp]

Well I dont know Stephen personally so I dont know what his feelings are either way!

But what I would say is that you cant rein an artist in and tell him he cant use a certain word because its "offensive"..............YES of COURSE the word IS offensive but people in real live can be wicked and nasty and offensive - so basically he is illustrating them and all their flaws.

Your friend is African American and doesnt like the "n" word - fair enough I suppose but I think it terribly narrow minded of him not to read a book just because it has that word in it.

I am a woman and in Stephens books Ive seen them refered to as C.....ts..........do you think I like to be called that? No of course not! But Im not stupid enough to think that Stephen "hates women because he uses the "c" word" ..........its because he's talking about people out there who DO disrespect women

And when Stephen uses this word to illustrate how nasty or ignorant someone can be when they USE that word - he is doing me a favour - just my opinon!

So tell your friend that its not Stephen using the word, but he is illustrating how ignorant some people still are in this day and age - and to me thats a postive thing to do - not negative!!!

An open mind is a wonderful thing to have!

[BDenbrough]

Your friend is COMPLETELY off base on this. Stephen King is not a racist. Mike Hanlon from IT was black, and he was one of the strongest characters in the book.

And the whole section in the book about the "Black Spot" was very sad, and haunting. It showed how evil (those) white people were and how tragic racism could be.

And Dick Hollaran....he was a great character....and black. I can see how your friend would get offended, but he/she has it all wrong

[JohnDalglish]

Your friend is COMPLETELY off base on this. Stephen King is not a racist. Mike Hanlon from IT was black, and he was one of the strongest characters in the book.

And the whole section in the book about the "Black Spot" was very sad, and haunting. It showed how evil (those) white people were and how tragic racism could be.

And Dick Hollaran....he was a great character....and black. I can see how your friend would get offended, but he/she has it all wrong

Hi,

And Mother Abagail.

And John Coffey.

And Susannah Dean

And Speedy Parker.

Andandand....

Long daysc and pleasant nights

[skimom]

I think that is somewhat the agony and ecstasy of being a writer. To be true to yourself, you have to be true to the character, and, damn it, sometimes the character isn't so nice. The joy of having the passage, or bit of dialogue ring true (like Sai King's 'jelly jar vs. crystal' analogy) can also hold the shadow of being something that is personally offensive to you. And I think that comes up often for SK, because he writes about real people, not idealized cardboard cut-outs. I sound like a slavish sycophant here, but I just can't think of any writer, at any time, that does a better job with realistic characterization and dialogue than Mr. King.

Your friend is sensitive to racism, and I can understand that. He is missing out by not looking at the whole picture, however.

[ally88]

Hi, well personally i think your friend is looking for a problem where one doesn't really exist. As previously mentioned some of Uncle Steve's strongest characters are black...should I as a white girl take offence when some of his female characters are brutally attacked/raped and believe that makes him a sex offender?

Surely if his work's are considered to demonstrate his own personality then he should have been arrested a long time ago, as the man is no doubt a homicidal maniac..it is called fiction for a reason:smile2:.

[Turd Ferguson]

I can't read the man's mind through the books he writes, but I don't think Stephen King is a racist. I love the works of Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft to death, but they were most definitely racist.

[hansel4150]

Hmm, funny how they can call each other Niggers, but when white people say the word, it's a racial slur. The media makes it out as though whites are only racist and that Black people are NEVER racist. *ends rant*

[tillyn]

I agree with all of the above, it is needed to show the depth (or lack of )in a character.

[Bluey Lunger]

i don't doubt for a second that your friend has had to endure some painful lessons. we all learn those lessons. we are all a minority of one. but i happened on this from a sk story, "sometimes they come back" from the night shift collection.

jim norman is teaching twenty-seven "slow learners" in his period seven living with literature course and when one of the slow learners tells jim that he didn't read the book they were discussing, because, as Mr. Fenton, (the s.l.) said, "I think it's a dumb book."

Jim replied "...you want to remember that while you're judging the book, the book is also judging you."

[Jack Torrance]

Well several black characters do get the N word hurled in their direction quite a bit but it's usually from the "bad" characters. If not always from the bad characters. Several times King has used a black character as either the hero of his stories or at least good characters that influence the entire novel(s) he is writing. If he were truly racist wouldn't he always put the black characters in a bad light and never make them the hero?

Here are a few that just popped into my head. See, I can't even remember their character's name from the novels/films.

Mother Abagail - The Stand - The main good character that all the good people flock to.
Speedy Parker - Without him Jack Sawyer has no clue
John Coffey - The tragic hero from The Green Mile
Morgan Freeman's character from Shawshank - Duh
The black maintenance man who can "Shine" in The Shining - Much like Speedy.

I am sure every character mentioned here is called the N word. Basically by a bad character or if it's a good character they are under some odd stress. I could see it being difficult for a black person to read but actually saying King himself is racist is kind of hard to believe.

[JUSTINHOKETT]

I dont believe the mr. King is a racist. I've read most of his stories and although the stories contain persons whom use the "n" word, it doesnt make the author a racist, its not like he is writing an instruction booklet for instaling a home theatre system. Hes writing storys, and uasualy the evil ones in these storys are the ones who use the "n" word. I would think that would make a strong point that mr. King considers racism evil

[Mr Nobody]

Funny, because I've always thought SK shows he is anti-racist in his portrayals - we, the readers, are meant to see the racist (or sexist, or overly-religious) characters as something to be pitied and concerned about. In that way, Stephen has never moved on from being a teacher: he's teaching us about human nature's ugly side right there.

As has been said before, it'd be easy for me, as a white man, to cite Detta Walker as a racist black character - for racism, ironically, is colour-blind in that it goes both ways - but while I find the character offensive (even if her attitudes are ultimately shown to be justified in part), it would be going too far to be offended at the writer.

IMO, the friend of the OP needs to 'listen for the pop'. Censoring issues out of books and films won't make it go away. Indeed, the opposite will happen and intolerance will again become prevalent.

[CorbinKale]

Everyone is racist. Everyone. The only difference between us is whether we try to suppress our evil nature, or revel in it. I like an author who isn't afraid to put human nature under a microscope and give it a good poke with a stick. SK doesn't advocate racism, but if he ignored it he would be a fraud.

You might point out to your friend that his refusal to read SK, because of perceived racism, is PROOF of HIS racism.

[Goodlovin]

Mr King tends to write about people who are often times backwater hillbillies from Maine and are often very ignorant and violent. It only stands to reason some of these people would be racist.


I certainly dont blame your friend for not wanting to read something for his own enjoyment and then read certain things that would offend him.

[karend3]

Mr. King is not a racist, he just uses realistic characters and come on a lot of people say that word. Especially back in the 50's which is the Decade Henry was a teenager and that was all he knew.

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

Everyone is racist. Everyone.

You might point out to your friend that his refusal to read SK, because of perceived racism, is PROOF of HIS racism.

I think it would be more accurate to say "No one is IMMUNE to racism, no-one succeeds in completely liberating themselves from the racism in our environment."

Can you explain that second comment? I don't see how A proves B. (I suspect, until you show me otherwise, that your forming that idea might indicate some lurking racism in your own ideas that's finding a way to express itself.)

We all float down here...

[Annarkie]

This was a great thread!! I wonder if SK was accused of being sexist, anti-semitic, homophobic...etc. People are soooooo paranoid now days. I miss Looney Tunes. I heard the show was taken off the air for being racist...I didn't see it. If anything it made fun of rednecks and speech impediments... I dunno. I just miss the dynamite and falling anvils.

[Neil W]

Looking at your friend's attitudes, I suggest he should stay well clear of To Kill A Mockingbird - by gum, there's some racism in that one!

[catnoel]

One of the reasons I like Sai King writing so much is because it is "real". His characters fart, scratch, and show all their warts. Unfortunately, some” real" people still use that kind of language!!! I think "editing" his characters would lose something in the translation. Secondly, you are reading Stephen King not an etiquette reference book. Things get blown up. killed, mutilate, burned, nothing is sacred.:tongue::tongue:

[Countrygirl_sass]

I have never been offended in any way by Mr. King. He has to be true to the story and tell it like he feels it, just like an actor acting a particular part.

Also I don't think all people who live way back in the woods are redneck rascists. Thats where I live, and I am not rascist. I hate that people feel that way, but I guess its just the way things have been interpreted over the years, if a few are well then surely all are. I hate to say it but rascists are around every corner whether you see them or not. They are not all gun totein', tobacco spitting, overall wearing, inbred "rednecks". I think too many people just believe a myth, and they keep passing that on. Don't kid yourselves folks, all rascists are not in the woods here, there, and yonder. And they are most certainly not spread out just in the deep south. There are rascist everywhere in this world of ours, and have been in many shapes and forms since the beginning of time.

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

This was a great thread!! I wonder if SK was accused of being sexist, anti-semitic, homophobic...etc. People are soooooo paranoid now days. I miss Looney Tunes. I heard the show was taken off the air for being racist...I didn't see it. If anything it made fun of rednecks and speech impediments... I dunno. I just miss the dynamite and falling anvils.

I often think there's a little thread of homophobia in Sai King's mind that surfaces now and then... even though he consciously tries to be a good liberal and be neutral to the issue. The one place where I think I see it most clearly is in the "A Very Tight Place" story in Just After Sunset.

We all float down here...

[IfSoGirl]

I often think there's a little thread of homophobia in Sai King's mind that surfaces now and then... even though he consciously tries to be a good liberal and be neutral to the issue. The one place where I think I see it most clearly is in the "A Very Tight Place" story in Just After Sunset.

We all float down here...
i dont see how that one was homophobic

[Sweet One]

As has been said before, it'd be easy for me, as a white man, to cite Detta Walker as a racist black character - for racism, ironically, is colour-blind in that it goes both ways - but while I find the character offensive (even if her attitudes are ultimately shown to be justified in part), it would be going too far to be offended at the writer.


Racism doesn't just go both ways; it goes many different ways. In the U. S. we're used to racism as a Black vs. White thing. But racists come in all colors, and there are many manifestations of racism (which is only one form or tribalistic prejudice, BTW). In some African countries there is (or was)Black institutionized racism against Asiatic Indians--which is a totally different species then Black (reactionary) racism in the U.S.

[ally88]

Hi guys:smile2:.

Lencho i don't understand how you found A Very Tight Place homophobic...surely the fact that Curtis overcame and defeated Grunwald in this story must count for something. Yes Grunwald was clearly homophobic, but as in all walks of life, many people are. Again this doesn't make Uncle Steve homophobic...Grunwald and Curtis are characters, nothing more and nothing less. I think sometimes we can over analyse or try to simplify things instead of simply just enjoying it for what it is...a story.

[adrianmarley]

I haven't read A Very Tight Place so I can't comment on whether or not it's homophobic. However, I always did have a problem with King's portrayal of the gay characters in IT. They were so stereotypical (and not in a good way). However, he did redeem himself with the gay character in Cell (whose name I've forgotten).

[Lencho_of_the_Apes]

Grunwald, yes, but... looking more deeply at the bones of the story, it seems like the internal logic of the whole thing was a bit like "I'm going to take this gay character and put him into a situation where he winds up covered in s*it". It all just reminded me of the way teenage boys (for example) focus on b*tts*x as being something inconceivably filthy and repulsive, like that whole cluster of slang terms that express that kind of "anal panic". Poo-pusher, hershey tunnel, stuff like that. (I think my favorite one is a brit phrase I saw once, somebody disparaging "uphill gardeners.")

Would the story have been different if Curtis had been heterosexual? Would it maybe have made less sense? I suspect that changing that one detail would have destroyed a big chunk of the significance of the story.

We all float down here...

[tcgob]

Is it really necessary to cover this tired old ground yet again?

[JRLauer]

If you’ve ever tried to write a story, you’ll find that after a little while the story will have a tendency to take on a life of it’s own. Sometimes it will lead you in a direction that you didn’t expect to go.

I once wrote a short story for a contest that I wanted to enter. The story was not to exceed 25 pages. I had an idea of what I wanted to write, I had the beginning and the ending and all I thought I needed to do was fill in the middle. When I was only 9 pages into the story it started going off in a direction I didn’t want it to go, I wasn’t going to get the ending I wanted with where it was taking me, so I tried to bring it back on track but that didn’t work. So I decided to let it go and see what would happen. By the time it was finished I was miles away from where I originally wanted to be and it was over 70 pages long.

So it isn’t so much the writer as it is the story that comes out that way. Try it sometime, you’ll understand what I mean.

[Bryan James]

1) Being a racist means that you have shut off your mind from other possibilities/sensibilities.

2) If you have shut off your mind from other possibilities/sensibilities you cannot be a good fiction writer.

3) Stephen King is a racist, and therefore he is not a good fiction writer.

What bullshit logic. King's an equal opportunity offender, and I'm glad for it.

BJS

[aneaglesangel]

Fiction does tend to try to portray real life. In real life there is prejudice and worse. When a writer portrays life it isn't always pretty, especially if he does it well. A good writer can make us cry, laugh, get angry. Racism is a tough subject and I wish it weren't out there in the world. If it wasn't there in the first place, writers wouldn't have to write about it and be accused of being racist. But it does exist.

I also think some good points have been made here. In most instances that I've seen the "n" word used in SK's books was usually done by the bad characters. Showing that side of man in the bad guy. Does sort of make a point in my eyes. But maybe it's lost on some.

I admit that I'm mostly Caucasian, with a little bit of Native American mixed in, but I am bothered by the 'n' word. I've got too many good friends of color that I think too highly on. I hope if I'm ever forced to use the 'n' word in any of my stories that I hope to write someday that they forgive me for it. That they understand, it's only a story.....

[dumakeykate]

I hate racism, or any "icsm!"

Life in general can be offensive if you choose to take it that way. Musicans use colourful langugae that can be taken offensively also, certain language like the "n" words is commonly used.

The context is always important, I dont always agree that such language needs to be used but take it in the artistic context it is used in, that is what I do. Some characters are bad and they use bad words - it's all relative not racism.

[Cognac]

im sorry about your friend, but that is completely ludacris. sai king models his stories from life, i believe, and in life, things of that nature exist.

[callen193]

racism is wrong

[Benita]

You said that very well.

[Taz]

I don't think Kings a racist. Some of his characters may be but that doesnt mean he is. Also he often shows African Americans in a very positive light such as Mother Abagail in the Stand.

This was the exact point I was going to make, I don't think Stephen King is racist at all, but he has to give his characters substance, and in my mind he makes them very real. Obviously some of his characters are very outlandish, but when I get absorbed in a book, they are very real, and yes although these words may be offensive, they are the characters words used to make the characters believable. I believe that should he be forced to censor himself that he would lose some of what make his writing so special. I believe your friend is depriving herself because of a chip on her shoulder and that sort of thing has always irritated me. I, for example call anyone a silly monkey if they do something that is just silly and makes me laugh, they can be white, black, asian or purple for all I care, but on one occasion I said this to a mixed race girl and she started calling me all sorts of names saying that I was implying she was descended from monkeys, I would like to point out that I believe in Darwins theory of evolution and therefore no matter what your race we all descend from monkeys, but I digress, the point was she had a chip on her shoulder and jumped to the conclusion that I was racist without looking at all the facts, I think your friend would like to believe Stephen King is a racist, so that is how she will see him. One question though, if she says that he uses the "N" word in almost all of his novels, and has sworn off reading his works, how does she know that for certain if she won't read his books?

[BlackThorn]

If your buddy hates every writer that has yucky true-to-life characters in it... man, he's gonna have pillows on the walls he's gonna be so sheltered.

Personally, we kinda messed up when we brought African-Americans to the United States to begin with. We brought them here as slaves, to do all our work for us at no pay other than food and shelter to survive with. Then eventually, they were set free, and now they go to Harvard and become doctors and lawyers and everything.

They wouldn't be as evolved if they stayed down in Africa. Honestly, they wouldn't have one fourth of the chances they have now, waking up generations into being natural born citizens.

So when anybody claims out there that someone is picking them out specifically to stereotype them... well, you really have to wonder what offends them so bad, they can't roll with the punches. I love redneck jokes, I love Irish jokes. I love jokes about burning witches, and pretty much any other joke that points out how ignorant masses can be. I believe stereotypes exist for a reason, but they're also not set in stone, just maybe they're the general trend.

But when King has an abusive Irish jerk terrorizing his town, I usually really enjoy the character, and enjoy it when others make ethnic jokes or slurs about them too. Ace Merill was a jerk, who was cool and calculated and savage and nasty and ruthless. He'd hurt you just because he wanted to show you he had the power. So you're saying, if his character happened to be black, and somebody shouted "hey N*****!!" at him, your buddy would be so offended he'd have to put the book down? Ace could handle his own problems.

Are you sure your friend reads? A lot of time people will fake taking offense, when they weren't interested in reading it anyways, and want a good excuse to pass around.

[shangirl]

If your buddy hates every writer that has yucky true-to-life characters in it... man, he's gonna have pillows on the walls he's gonna be so sheltered.

Personally, we kinda messed up when we brought African-Americans to the United States to begin with. We brought them here as slaves, to do all our work for us at no pay other than food and shelter to survive with. Then eventually, they were set free, and now they go to Harvard and become doctors and lawyers and everything.

They wouldn't be as evolved if they stayed down in Africa. Honestly, they wouldn't have one fourth of the chances they have now, waking up generations into being natural born citizens.

So when anybody claims out there that someone is picking them out specifically to stereotype them... well, you really have to wonder what offends them so bad, they can't roll with the punches. I love redneck jokes, I love Irish jokes. I love jokes about burning witches, and pretty much any other joke that points out how ignorant masses can be. I believe stereotypes exist for a reason, but they're also not set in stone, just maybe they're the general trend.

But when King has an abusive Irish jerk terrorizing his town, I usually really enjoy the character, and enjoy it when others make ethnic jokes or slurs about them too. Ace Merill was a jerk, who was cool and calculated and savage and nasty and ruthless. He'd hurt you just because he wanted to show you he had the power. So you're saying, if his character happened to be black, and somebody shouted "hey N*****!!" at him, your buddy would be so offended he'd have to put the book down? Ace could handle his own problems.

Are you sure your friend reads? A lot of time people will fake taking offense, when they weren't interested in reading it anyways, and want a good excuse to pass around.

Are you serious? Are you really suggesting that there is no way African Americans would have become doctors or lawyers without us kidnapping them and focing them into slavery? You seriously think that they should THANK us for their decades of enslavement? I'm sorry but that is the most ignorant thing I've heard in a long time!

[michal]

It takes a non-racist writer to write bluntly racist-characters. With true racists you usually have to work harder to figure out what they are. And I mean - please, when we'll ask writers to start PCing their books, that'll be close to the end of literature. What next? Don't show violence or sex beacuse someone's feeling might be offended?
Writers are, at their best, a mirror to society. Not a Utopian Drawing of it.

And who wants to live in Utopia anyways?

[poisonbat]

Personally, we kinda messed up when we brought African-Americans to the United States to begin with. We brought them here as slaves, to do all our work for us at no pay other than food and shelter to survive with. Then eventually, they were set free, and now they go to Harvard and become doctors and lawyers and everything.

They wouldn't be as evolved if they stayed down in Africa. Honestly, they wouldn't have one fourth of the chances they have now, waking up generations into being natural born citizens.


Are you serious? Why would you say such a thing? :eek2::bat:

[Balrog21]

well, i figured this would provide some good posts..and i have read them all, and there are some REAL good points made in them.

i will go on by quoting Mr. King from the Virginia Beach Banned Books night. It's really simlple:

"I told the truth, and I have never lied." which, should be a commendation to him for telling the truth and not letting his 'characters' flubb and actually let them speak as REAL people speak in the real world. Does this make him a racist? Of course not, it's his characters that are speaking, not the opinion or particular views of the author.

it's IMO that if all writers were to skip and tip toe over things like this the Literature field would be a VERY VERY VERY bland field, and we would be living in a fictitious utopia which will never happen.

i am also sure that H.P. Lovecraft is not read by many Afro-Americans either because of his views on them and other nationality people. which is sad IMO. they are missing out on one of the greatest horror writers of our time.
best,
Bal

[gunslinger2278]

Some people believe that certain words have to be forbidden because they're innately toxic and there's no positive or neutral way ever to use them. Other people don't believe that.

Me, I don't. I agree with you that King's displaying the racism of his characters, not exposing racist ideas of his own, but your friend evidently doesn't want to see it that way.

If you're white, shangirl, IMO it's not up to you to try to 'correct' your friend's thinking, but some strong evidence of King's positive, progressive attitude toward race issues might be... og... the section of It where Mike Hanlon's father describes his experience int he army in the 1930's, or the book Bag Of Bones, the whole plot of which deals with an appealing, almost heroic black character and a horrifyingly ugly racist incident that ends up having supernatural overtones. Or The Green Mile, with a heroic black character at the center... or...

We all float down here.


I'd first like to say that I am a fan of Stephen King's literature. He's my favorite author, after I read his "Misery" I was hooked. I'm a writer myself and I try to follow his advice. I think he is one of the greatest writers ever to embrace the craft(Sometimes a bit boring though).

Secondly I'd like to say that a lot of you are a bit biased because you are in love with King's work, and also because you are not black. I wouldn't say Stephen King is racist but he sure loves using the word "nig-ger" a lot. I have read about ten of his novels and even more of his short stories. In every instance I have to read about how whites think of blacks as "nig-gers". Sure there was Coffee in the Green Mile(An uneducated black man in shackles), Sure there was Abigail(Another one of these type of caracatures), There was the guy in the Shining, and then there is Michael Hanlen. With the exeception of Michael Hanlan all of the black characters seem to be self sacrificing and ignorant.(Even Mike Hanlan is sacrificed and is unable to confront the beast face to face with his friends because he gets stabbed). They always die at the end for others in some great cause. I would never expect to see a black character play the depth and heroic nature of let's say....Roland.

Stephen Kings explanation of the "black spot" in IT; still another form of black ignorant people self sacrificing; his story "Dedication", another caracature of an ignorant black woman who gives birth to a son who is half white. It is clearly stated in this story that if she had stayed with the original husband, who was black(who beat her and used herion) that her son would not have been as intelligent.

Then again I don't expect Stephen King to put the black protagonist in this position, after all he's not black. I've never really known him to use this derogatory nature with Hispanics or Asians( He is in a rock band with Amy Tan).

Why with blacks?....And with our progressive attitudes in this new era, can a black man/woman in his novel be promoted from a "nig-ger" to just an ordinary human being? In his novels I don't mind being normal. I just don't want to be a "ni-gger"

Somebody said something about Mark Twain....The way Mark Twain used the black ignorant caracature model is completely different than the way Stephen King uses it. Mark Twain, as we all know is a satiist.
Stephen King is a horror novelist.

This aside, hes one of the greatest writers of all time....

[gunslinger2278]

Forgive my spelling mistakes. I was in a hurry!

[Fran D'Amico]

That is so silly.Just ask any Honky mo fo.

[Doc Wilson]

Its funny, I have been struck by almost the exact opposite observation. King seems to always protray black characters as saintly and wise.

[Aarny]

SK creates characters that are racist, so they must say racist things. Nobody wants EVERY character to be goody two shoes, do they?

[smunchkin]

I agree with everyone else it enriches the story and characters. Its fantasy but if it didnt have an element of truth none of us would be able to get lost in the story. I hope this doesnt get taken the wrong way because i dont use the word at all myself, but in this day and age who actually uses the word more? With an a or and r at the end to me its all the same.

[wendymartt]

I think racism is something that we still deal with today in a lot of ways that alot of people do not sit down and take the time to realize, when someone uses a racist word in a story, in a STORY THAT IS NOT BASED ON TRUE EVENTS, king is simply trying to relate a characters behavior...that is the way i observe it. I can easily see how your friend might be offended, but maybe they should read the entire book to see the view of this person, just because the "N" word is used, it is not always relating bad issues...it could be simply showing a point in the story...hope this helps!

[Piddyx]

I was just thinking about this topic. I could not think of any sympathetic black character in any Stephen King book. However, I beleave he is not for the following reasons:

1) The groundskeeper from The Shining is a positive black character.

2)He voted for Barak Obama, as stated in this article:
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/175900,stephen-king-backing-barack-obama.html


SARASOTA, Fla., Jan. 19 Horror story writer Stephen King is throwing his support to Barack Obama, saying having a black U.S. president is what the country needs.

King told the Bangor (Maine) Daily News the United States needs "a big change."

"We have had enough Bush Republicanism to last the country for a long time," he said. "We are seeing a lot of chickens come home to roost because of Bush administration policies. You can't pump billions of dollars into a foreign war without it affecting the economy."

King, 60, said he found it "an amazing thing" to see the two front-runners be a woman and a black man, the Daily News reported Saturday. But, King said, he prefers Obama, the senator from Illinois, over Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y.

"Obama has the least baggage of the two and is willing to try new things," he said. "It wouldn't be business as usual. Also it would do wonders for us in the world community to have a black man in the White House."

King's new novel, "Duma Key," is to hit bookstores Tuesday. It's the story of a construction worker who suffers the loss of his arm and memory after almost being killed by a crane at work.



Now, you can say that Duma Key did have a Lawn Jockey in it, but I am starting to think he uses racism in his novels to accomplish something. Maybe it shakes up the reader.

I shared your friend's opinion once, but after some thought I do not think it is the case.

[JohnDalglish]

I I could not think of any sympathetic black character in any Stephen King book.

Hi,

Welcome to the MB.

I can think of lots - Speedy Parker, Odetta Holmes,Dick O'Halloran, John Coffey etc etc.

Long days and pleasant nights.

[ramfan43]

Stephen King is not a racist.

[JohnDalglish]

Hi,

Welcome to the MB.

I can think of lots - Speedy Parker, Odetta Holmes,Dick O'Halloran, John Coffey etc etc.

Long days and pleasant nights.


Hi,

And how could I have omitted Mother Abagail?

Long days and pleasant nights

[Snaggletooth]

At the risk of being of being a flame-thrower........

Why is it OK for members of an ethnic group to call each other "the N word", dog, etc., but it's not OK for anyone outside that group to use it?

This is just a rhetorical question, of course. The fact that we have to use the euphemism "N word", instead of the actual word, demonstrates the power that we give to those 6 little letters. Frankly, I wouldn't want to use it if I was a writer, because of what it represents. If SK wants to use it in his works, fine and dandy, but it's a holdover from the ugliest days of slavery and does not contribute in any meaningful way to society or art. I don't need a writer (or anyone else, for that matter) to show me what racism is; I've seen plenty of real-life examples. And no, I'm not black, I just happen to agree with that point of view on this issue. All of this having been said, I don't think that SK is a racist, he just doesn't have any qualms about using the word.

And by the way, Twain, Cooper, Conrad and Dickens used the word at a time when it was socially acceptable, i.e. during the period of slavery and shortly afterward. Times have changed. But not enough, apparently.

[Doc Wilson]

Grunwald, yes, but... looking more deeply at the bones of the story, it seems like the internal logic of the whole thing was a bit like "I'm going to take this gay character and put him into a situation where he winds up covered in s*it". It all just reminded me of the way teenage boys (for example) focus on b*tts*x as being something inconceivably filthy and repulsive, like that whole cluster of slang terms that express that kind of "anal panic". Poo-pusher, hershey tunnel, stuff like that. (I think my favorite one is a brit phrase I saw once, somebody disparaging "uphill gardeners.")

Would the story have been different if Curtis had been heterosexual? Would it maybe have made less sense? I suspect that changing that one detail would have destroyed a big chunk of the significance of the story.

We all float down here...

Wow I don't see that at all. I'm straighter than hell and I totally resonated with Curtis and his struggle. SK has a well documented penchant for the scatalogical and this was simply the ultimate riff on that theme.

[JohnDalglish]

Hi,

I used the N word very recently in my own writing after a lot of soul searching about it.

I suppose I could have used descriptive language to describe the character as a stupid, ignoirant racist, but frankly I thought that having them refer to a third party as 'that n*gger!' had far more power and meaning than any amount of PC acceptable language would have had.

Long days and pleasant nights

[Sigmund]

At the risk of being of being a flame-thrower........

Why is it OK for members of an ethnic group to call each other "the N word", dog, etc., but it's not OK for anyone outside that group to use it?

This is just a rhetorical question, of course. The fact that we have to use the euphemism "N word", instead of the actual word, demonstrates the power that we give to those 6 little letters. Frankly, I wouldn't want to use it if I was a writer, because of what it represents. If SK wants to use it in his works, fine and dandy, but it's a holdover from the ugliest days of slavery and does not contribute in any meaningful way to society or art. I don't need a writer (or anyone else, for that matter) to show me what racism is; I've seen plenty of real-life examples. And no, I'm not black, I just happen to agree with that point of view on this issue. All of this having been said, I don't think that SK is a racist, he just doesn't have any qualms about using the word.

And by the way, Twain, Cooper, Conrad and Dickens used the word at a time when it was socially acceptable, i.e. during the period of slavery and shortly afterward. Times have changed. But not enough, apparently.

Hi Snaggle
You said it was a rhetorical question and I guess it will have to be because I'm not Black and can't answer in that manner. However, as a Hispanic person I can say we, "we" meaning Hispanics can, will and do call each other Spic, beaner, greaser, raza, wetback, etc. because those words were used to hurt us and demean us and our culture. We, in turn decided to take back our power and not give those words the power to hurt. So now, we use them with each other to tease each other, knowing that we have all lived that experience and pain of being abused, demeaned and shunned. We use those words because we have earned the right to turn them into a goofy/friendly way of talking to each. BUT, if you are not Hispanic you don't have the background or experience (the scars) to use those words and you will be seen as malicious and racists.
Just my experience and understanding. Let me know what you think.
Peace,
r

[Snaggletooth]

We use those words because we have earned the right to turn them into a goofy/friendly way of talking to each. BUT, if you are not Hispanic you don't have the background or experience (the scars) to use those words and you will be seen as malicious and racists.

I was pointing out what seemed to me to be a paradox regarding who gets to use naughty words on whom.

If I had been born 40 of 50 years before my actual conception, then I would definitely have related to your explanation. My family (both sides) comes from Eastern European Jewish stock. Hitler did more than call us names (I won't list any, although in German there are quite a few), he gassed and burned up quite a few of us. None of my family though, we came to America around 1910 - 1915 or so. But man's inhumanity to man always starts with the language used to describe or label one's fellow man. Maybe that explains my perspective and sensitivity to the issue, I don't know.

[Sigmund]

Snaggle,
Thank you for sharing. I think we have an understanding of each others perspective. We're cool, right?
Peace,
r

[Snaggletooth]

Snaggle,
Thank you for sharing. I think we have an understanding of each others perspective. We're cool, right?
Peace,
r

Cool as a cucumber (refridgerated edition) :cool2:

[KyleEstey]

I think your friend is wrong and should get over himself. Like you said, it's not the author, it's the characters. and if your friend is that offended, why is he reading them then? Or rather trying to read them?

[nursecindy]

I've never thought of Stephen King as being racist. This is a surprising thing to me. I've thought a few times he was a little hard on children but so was Charles Dickens. I guess if you look hard enough you can find racism in anything you read. If that is the kind of person you are. You won't be able to change your friend's mind so I would just let it be. They are missing a wonderful author however.

[Snaggletooth]

Everyone is racist. Everyone. The only difference between us is whether we try to suppress our evil nature, or revel in it. I like an author who isn't afraid to put human nature under a microscope and give it a good poke with a stick. SK doesn't advocate racism, but if he ignored it he would be a fraud.

You might point out to your friend that his refusal to read SK, because of perceived racism, is PROOF of HIS racism.


...even Mother Teresa? Even Martin Luther King Jr? Even Gandhi? Everyone? Really?

[randallFlaggfan1]

Hi,

I used the N word very recently in my own writing after a lot of soul searching about it.

I suppose I could have used descriptive language to describe the character as a stupid, ignoirant racist, but frankly I thought that having them refer to a third party as 'that n*gger!' had far more power and meaning than any amount of PC acceptable language would have had.

Long days and pleasant nights

John, you really used that word in your writing? WOW.

[randallFlaggfan1]

John, you really used that word in your writing? WOW.

As a fellow writer, I honestly don't think I could do that.

[Kaleidoscope]

It's the character's choice of words and not the author's. Simple as that.