Greyhound killer not criminally responsible...

[Srbo]

I know there was a thread here a few month ago when this happened, and here is what the judge ruled:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090305/national/crime_bus_beheading_14


So...I don`t know what to say...
Send him to a hospital, feed him, cure him, give him cable...everything...

And that young guy stays beheaded...and dead...

[staropeace]

He lived in my building...if I had a choice,I would put a bullet through his head. It could have been one of us or our loved ones. He could have taken that knife out before he left the building.........he wasnt insane ...he had enough skills to cope in public...I should know...I saw him day to day.

[JRLauer]

I never believed in this mental illness crap. What ever happened to "An eye for an eye". People need to be responsible for their actions. This is not responible. The judge is practically rewarding this guy for his violent behavior. What message does that send to our kids?

[CorbinKale]

I expected this. This is the only possible ruling for a government intent on disarming its people. If they had found him guilty of murder, that would imply a reason for self defense, which would conflict with the gun ban propaganda. Better to find him 'not responsible' and keep the masses defenseless in the interests of civilization.

:glare:

[staropeace]

He had his senses about him.........I dont understand our justice system at all. The guy could engage in normal conversation and he could socialize...at least he could the day before....he may have had a disorder...but that doesnt mean he was insane and didnt know right from wrong...we label everyone now...and pay homage to Dr.Phil.... What we dont label people is plain ole evil..........too bad.

[tillyn]

I thankfully didn't know the fellow (sorry star that you knew of him) but my heart goes out to Mcclean's mom/dad, family. This is not a surprise to me i figured it would be an insanity ruling.( I actually know a fellow who was schio. and this sort of thing did happen to him. He was finally given the proper meds. and is under control now.) I'm hoping he never sees the light of day.
[Double Post]
I expected this. This is the only possible ruling for a government intent on disarming its people. If they had found him guilty of murder, that would imply a reason for self defense, which would conflict with the gun ban propaganda. Better to find him 'not responsible' and keep the masses defenseless in the interests of civilization.

:glare:

Sorry, but i disagree with the right to bare arms., Canadians are known for being peace keepers, i'm hoping it stays that way. I know our government has rules for everything which i really hate most of the time but i can't say i see the right to bare arms working so great in the States.

[tillyn]

Please don't misunderstand me , but i have worked in the mental health field for the last 20 years. I know i never met/knew the guy, but some people do, do horrendous things due to mental illness. I've worked in a mental ward where the eyes of some patients were black no whites. You knew these people were gone, usually they were having one of there episodes.(usually violent ones) I still see this . I'm not defending this man at all, or labeling him just putting out it there that extreme behaviors happen and yes there are indeed many evil people who walk the earth.

[rjt65]

i could give a hoot how bad he is..to bad --eye for an eye I say.. let him get stabbed and decapitated chopped up and fed to rats.. too bad...

this is despicable--so how long until he is better 6 mo a year? than what will he get a guaranteed job?


this is where both US and Canada need to fix the system..

[Todash]

Staro, I know that you were very much touched by this. It must be very frightening to think how close you existed to someone who could do something this horrible. I truly wish it hadn't happened. So I hope you, and the rest of you, can see that I do not mean any offense by what I am about to say.

There is evil, and there is sick. Occasionally evil may masquerade as sick, and occasionally sick may look a lot like evil, but they are not the same thing. A woman killing her children so that she can be with a man who doesn't want kids—that's evil. A woman killing her children because she thinks God is telling her to so that they can make it into heaven while they're still pure—that's sick.

[staropeace]

I know the difference ....or I wasted alot of money on tuition for a degree in psychology...I have seen it all I think.:eek2:....especially when you work with the streetpeople...every disorder one can think of is represented there,and then some.:biggrin2:

The thing is,this guy didnt really display this kinda behavior to the folks around him. The pleas of insanity has very stringent definitions. This guy didnt seem to fit many. He knew what he was doing. He interacted with the people on the bus in a normal fashion. Went outside for a smoke with some when there was a bus stop rest. That is what I find hard to accept ,see. He knew right from wrong.If that is the case,then he should take ownership.

All folks here in Canada has to do to be labelled insane is to drool a little and wring their hands.....or say Post-partum depression or something of that nature...it doesnt wash with me. We are doing this all wrong...the city I live in has become like a town in a war torn country in the middle east somewhere..and I feel the justice system is very much responsible.

[rjt65]

Todash: No Offense taken hope none 'given' from my opinion either :-)

I disagrre that Occasionally those who are evil and pretend or them and their lawyers hop on the I'm insane bandwagon to beat the rap. It happens Frequently. Any way to beat the rap..

regardless : I would dispose of him.. Do not get me wrong I approve of proper care for SICK or otherwise handicapped people, but someone who commits an act of such depravity.. Sick or no deserves the same. IMO...

Diff. of Opinions is what makes us --interesting..no? Aain have a good weekend all


Staro, I know that you were very much touched by this. It must be very frightening to think how close you existed to someone who could do something this horrible. I truly wish it hadn't happened. So I hope you, and the rest of you, can see that I do not mean any offense by what I am about to say.

There is evil, and there is sick. Occasionally evil may masquerade as sick, and occasionally sick may look a lot like evil, but they are not the same thing. A woman killing her children so that she can be with a man who doesn't want kids—that's evil. A woman killing her children because she thinks God is telling her to so that they can make it into heaven while they're still pure—that's sick.

[Born In Sin]

OK now what happens if or when he gets "better"? Will he be able to walk the streets a free man again? Or is this a life sentence in a mental facility?

[Srbo]

Staro, you are pretty much right in everything you said.
I didn`t know that that monster lived in your building though...:eek2:

As I have stated before..I am against the death penalty. Especially that part where you said " a bullet in the head ".
But...I also never said that people like that deserve to see the light of day ever again.
Now comes the question: What then ? Spend tax money on him and so on, you know what I mean.
No.
Lock him up anywhere, a dungeon, it doesn`t matter what it is...no meds, no cable TV, no electricity, no bathroom, no nothing...a piece of bread a day and a glass of water...and leave him alone with his thoughts.
No more, no less.
A bullet is to fast and to sweet of a death for people like that...let `em live `till judgment day...but alone.
Not to see a human face ever again.
That hurts more then any bullet, any Old Sparky...anything.

It costs close to nothing...except for that piece of bread you give him daily...

As for that insanity BS - when he first got arrested, his words were:
" Just kill me ".
An insane person does not say that...they think whatever they have done is nice and dandy and that we are the lunatics.
So, your point about the Canadian justice system and how they label someone to be insane is very solid and good.

I was diagnosed with PTSD a long, long time ago...and I don`t even believe in that stuff.
It`s just bad memories, nightmares, you get anxious once in a while for no apparent reason - and so what ?
Millions of people live like that.
Does that give me the right to behave like a maniac and then say - look, peeps, I had a hard life, so I can be on the looney side from time to time ?
Of course not.

And that`s why I am so upset that they declared that monster not responsible.
I`ve got no degree in psychology, but I know crazy from normal, believe me...seen it a million times.
And I don`t believe at all that this guy is crazy.
Not that that was even temporary insanity.

He is a monster - bloodthirsty and pissed off about something here in Canada...so he decided to show the Canadians what he thinks of this country by killing someone.

No more, no less.

Just my 2 cents.

[staropeace]

And theres the rub,Born In Sin. THey cant even make up their silly minds. When he was found not criminall resposible...they were also going to give him a criminal record.....which contradicts their ruling entirely...I heard yesterday they changed their mind about that....:wow::wow:
If he has no criminal record...I guess he can be diagnosed as cured....once the pills kick in and stuff like some years pass.
He could fool folks to get away with murder...he can fool them to get out of the mental hospital...he will probably end up down the street in the forensic part of Alberta hospital...........Oh I am not even going to start on that lot....save that for another rant:biggrin2:

[Sawney Beane]

Sometimes life becomes a matter of just kipping the horror away from you and your loved ones.In my opinion,those sort of crimes bring out the most territorial and brutal feelings from all of us.It´s like if we´d found a rat in our baby´s cradle,we don´t want just that rat out of the house,we want it dead,some of us would probably like to kill it ourselves. When we have managed to swallow that venomous chunk of hate then we think about the victim and the people he or she has left behind and about our loved ones,and what would we do,how could we cope (we couldn´t),how can that happen,Why can that happen.
For those who,like you,have witnessed part of it, it´s always much worst,I think,for although you may not know the victim,the proximity of the crime conjures up another set of questions to add to the ones you already have.How didn´t we see?What could we have done?
I´m aware that this might not be your case at all,I´m talking from personal experience so I´m perhaps getting a bit enthusiastic.The only thing I know is once those emotions are gone,you may feel weak and powerless, your inside bruised and battered,maybe for not letting your own monster rise up and do what you know it should be done.And of course,you don´t dare to ask for confort,since you are not related to the victim.
This will pass.I know it´s terrible to say that.But it´s true.Your city doesn´t look now like a safe place to live anymore,and that makes you angry, afraid
and sad.But it will pass.There´s always more good people out there than bad.That´s all I can say to you.

[Eleese of Gilead.]

I have been over the top angry about this.

What happened to the days where you did a crime, then the time? He should be hanging off a tree right now.
Someone needs to be held responsible, whether he's "schizophrenic" or not, that doesn't change what's happened. "
I know someone very close to me that has that mental illness and it's not something that comes out of the blue one day, you know you're living with a disability and it is up to you to take the necessary precautions to prevent it getting a hold of your life. Also, from what I've learned when the illness starts taking over it's a process.
Like Staro said, this man led a life of his own. Who is this Dr. to come in and assess him, then determine he is mentally unstable, well no sh*t Sherlock! Thanks for the great prognoses, it's just too bad this psycho killer can now collect a "get out of jail free" card.

[Kim L.]

Having worked in a state hospital for those found Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity (NGRI), I can tell you being in a forensic psychiatric hospital is not a get-out-of-jail free card and it is not a cushy existence.
I haven't met or assessed the killer in question, so am NOT stating my opinion on whether the court ruling was right or wrong. But psychotic breaks can occur suddenly, in a mental illness like schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is on a different scale of mental illness than depression, PTSD or panic. Many people with these disorders work & live normal lives. It is rare that a schizophrenic patient can even live on his or her own, and yes, I have personal experience as well as professional.

[BlackThorn]

Hey, guess what? I'm schizophrenic. I talk to God. I could listen to him in my morning toast if I really wanted to, I guess I'm just tuned in.

But I was warned a long time ago, that if I ever did anything nasty to anyone or anything or whatever, I couldn't use the fact that I was mental to get away with anything.

I dunno, I'm not in the right mood now to consider it or get into it really, but if this guy does have damage, we need to forget everything else, and focus on the fact that this guy took another human life, right on display in front of everyone. I DON'T CARE IF HE CAN GET BETTER, HE NEEDS TO NEVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY AGAIN. Really, I mean, you get chances in life. You know that cute girl that you see in the elevator every once in a while, but you never said hello to, at least not yet? Well, if you walk up to her the first time and say something wild and off base from reality to her, if she doesn't click with it and think you're fun or funny, then guess what? You just caused irreversible damage. That's the last time she'll think you're attractive again, no matter what, and if you said something stupid enough, she'll probably move, or at least, find a way to never need to deal with you again.

Soooo, if this guy killed someone, he's not gonna get the same treatment? You tellin' me, he's gonna eventually get another chance with that girl? And if she upsets him again, he'll cut her head off again? And what, do we consider his mental damage at that point? Eh, we let him out too early... maybe if this time, we try seven months in mental-rehab, he'll be nice to her when he gets out that time!

There comes a point, where we need to just forget about pretending we care about every ****in soul on the planet, understand that there's gonna be some losses, and just flush the ones that aren't ever gonna be useful here. It's not like they're that hard to pick out. Hey look, this guy beheaded someone. **** tryin' to find an excuse, he needs to get his carcass into the soil if he's gonna continue being a part of this planet.

How about you let me kill him. I'm mental. Wouldn't that be somehow fair? I wouldn't feel any remorse, honest. I'm more intelligent than that.

[AngelZ]

This is really disturbing to me:
That means he will be sent to a provincial psychiatric facility rather than to prison. He comes under the jurisdiction of Manitoba's provincial review board, which will decide whether he poses a risk to the public. The review board has the power to keep Li locked up indefinitely or, if he is no longer considered a risk, discharge him


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/05/mb-li-verdict.html

Who's welfare should comes first? This killer's or the society's?

[Eleese of Gilead.]

I will sit firm that it is a get-out-of-jail free card. He's not going to jail. If the hospital is not cushy all the better. I'm sick of supporting these people. Seriously if you're not a productive member of society then you don't belong here. Exile, execution whatever. There's a reason why things are getting worse and out of hand. If this man does have schizophrenia then he must be a special case, this is an isolated incident. There are many in this world with that illness, how come this doesn't happen more often?

Kim I mean absolutely no disrespect, I fully appreciate your opinions. I know you can comment on this matter because of what you do and what you know. I'm just angry.

[Srbo]

This is really disturbing to me:


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/05/mb-li-verdict.html

Who's welfare should comes first? This killer's or the society's?

That`s what bugs me as well.

The review board has the power to keep Li locked up indefinitely or, if he is no longer considered a risk, discharge him

Could they really set him free one day ?

[staropeace]

Canada generally concentrates on the rights of the abuser.....that is just the way it is.....no doubt about it. I would be concerned about him getting out again and having a hearing every year. I know my country too well.

He was going for a job interview when he beheaded the poor young man. Like I said before,he was living in the real world...day to day...same old ...same old.

I find it shocking that in my life I have known two people who beheaded others....I good friend of my family was murdered by her boyfriend and dismembered. They still havent found her head.....but the guy who did this got life in prison....thank God.

About Li................

http://www.chrisd.ca/blog/1109/vince-li-the-face-and-voice-of-a-killer/

[Srbo]

I refuse to call this "guy " by name or even call him human.


Andy Dufresne: I have no enemies here.
Red: Yeah? Wait a while. Word gets around. The Sisters have taken quite a likin' to you. Especially Boggs.
Andy Dufresne: I don't suppose it would help if I told them that I'm not homosexual.
Red: Neither are they. You have to be human first. They don't qualify.

[Kim L.]

I will sit firm that it is a get-out-of-jail free card. He's not going to jail. If the hospital is not cushy all the better. I'm sick of supporting these people. Seriously if you're not a productive member of society then you don't belong here. Exile, execution whatever. There's a reason why things are getting worse and out of hand. If this man does have schizophrenia then he must be a special case, this is an isolated incident. There are many in this world with that illness, how come this doesn't happen more often?

Kim I mean absolutely no disrespect, I fully appreciate your opinions. I know you can comment on this matter because of what you do and what you know. I'm just angry.

I understand, Eleese, And you're right, most schizophrenics are not dangerous.

[Kim L.]

I find it shocking that in my life I have known two people who beheaded others....I good friend of my family was murdered by her boyfriend and dismembered. They still havent found her head.....but the guy who did this got life in prison....thank God.



(((((Star))))) That really is shocking.

[staropeace]

Maybe I misread what Kim said...but I got the sense that she didnt say one way or the other whether she believed this man had schizophrenia.
She said and I quote........." It is rare that a schizophrenic patient can even live on his or her own, and yes, I have personal experience as well as professional.

Mr.Li lived with his wife....without any supervision...and held down a job. He worked at WalMart before this and at a church before that. He was somewhat self-effacing....but lots of folks are.

I have a cousin who suffers from schizophrenia. He had alot of auditory hallucinations and complicated his situation with street drugs.....after years of being hospitalized...he is taking his meds and doing okay.

Apparantly,Mr.Li showed no signs of this kind of pathology before.....one would think it wouldnt just appear in his forties.....it usually starts in early adulthood...but I am sure there are exceptions....

[Kim L.]

Maybe I misread what Kim said...but I got the sense that she didnt say one way or the other whether she believed this man had schizophrenia.
She said and I quote........." It is rare that a schizophrenic patient can even live on his or her own, and yes, I have personal experience as well as professional.

Apparantly,Mr.Li showed no signs of this kind of pathology before.....one would think it wouldnt just appear in his forties.....it usually starts in early adulthood...but I am sure there are exceptions....

Right, Star, thank you. I wasn't saying whether Mr. Li has schizophrenia.

[tempest]

I just wonder if he was sane how could he cut a persons head off with a knife? This is a difficult thing to do while a person is still alive. All the gore and the victum terrorified when he woke up.

I know that, as a sane person, I could not cause all that pain (cutting a head off of someone) and ignore the victums pleas. I also know that many people who enter the psychological field do not have much compassion for others. It's a field that attracts some very troubled people trying to hide from their own mental abnormalness.

So sentencing a killer to a mental institution to be cured by psychologist might be a very harsh punishment, indeed. (No one really knows what goes on in mental hospitals)

[Sawney Beane]

So sentencing a killer to a mental institution to be cured by psychologist might be a very harsh punishment, indeed. (No one really knows what goes on in mental hospitals) .Well,in most of them there´s people who needs help,and people who gives it.By "sentencing"a serial killer to be "cured" by a psychiatrist,we´re only giving him an assistance that is meant to be for people who really needs it ,people who WANTS to be cured,and on the other hand,haven´t killed anyone.
Apart from that,my wife works in a mental hospital,so there you go,here´s one that roughly knows what goes on in mental hospitals.No,I don´t think she entered the psychological field to hide from her own mental abnormalness,and yes,she does feel very much compassion for others.Actually,that´s what her job is all about,and she loves it.

[staropeace]

I just wonder if he was sane how could he cut a persons head off with a knife? This is a difficult thing to do while a person is still alive. All the gore and the victum terrorified when he woke up.

I know that, as a sane person, I could not cause all that pain (cutting a head off of someone) and ignore the victums pleas. I also know that many people who enter the psychological field do not have much compassion for others. It's a field that attracts some very troubled people trying to hide from their own mental abnormalness.

So sentencing a killer to a mental institution to be cured by psychologist might be a very harsh punishment, indeed. (No one really knows what goes on in mental hospitals)

While I respect the fact that you are more than entitled to your opinion,I have to say that I find your comment about those in the psychological field not having much compassion for others,to be somewhat troubling.

If you have had a bad experience with someone working in the field than I can certainly understand you being somewhat wary.....but I think it is a little overboard to say that this field attracts troubled folks whos main aim is to hide being abnormal.

When I see the long hours psychologists,social workers,and support workers put in ....I am amazed that we have any social agencies at all. Thank God for them and for their compassion. Thank God for the shelters,councelling centers,and other warming and relief centers...staffed with people who work so hard in the area of harm reduction for unhouseable and challenged peoples.

Most agencies require people trained in psychology or sociology to run their programs. They have to be wellgrounded healthy people with compassion. They have to be mature enough to avoid feeding their own egos by SAVING the world........it aint gonna happen.

Sure,there are bad folk everywhere....there are folks who have their personal agendas and care little about others. These types are in all professions...all job descriptions.

Most people I have met,who work with clients with mental pathologies...are usually the salt of the earth.

In a crazy world..........they are silver......they are gold.

[tempest]

Maybe I was playing with you a little here. But that is what happens when you make sweeping generalizations about the mentally ill. When the same can be said about psychologist, as they vary in their personalities and skill. Watch: "Never Talk To Strangers" starring Antonio Bandaras

Right across the border in Minnesota mentally ill are being turned away and murders are happening because of it. Beheadings.

A Prescription for Mayhem
**How shrinking psych wards spell trouble
Beth Hawkins
Published on January 11, 2006

"Before Stephen Miles killed his stepmother, he tried to check himself into the hospital. ........According to a criminal complaint filed last week in Dakota County District Court,the 23-year-old Eagan man killed his stepmother, Maris Jo Miles, with a hatchet blow to the head and then decapitated her with a knife.

Complete story here: http://www.citypages.com/2006-01-11/news/a-prescription-for-mayhem/

Now you be the decider. A man on grey hound chops of a mans head with no history of mental illness. A man in minnesota with dx of schizophrenia is denied psychiatric hospitalization and later beheads his step mother.

How do we know the greyhound guy did not get turned away for mental illness treatment?

[staropeace]

In Canada nobody gets turned away from getting mental illness treatment....services are free....psychiatrists are free...there are other agencies with psychologists and social workers..........also free. So how can he get turned away?

There are all kinds of mental illnesses but insanity,itself,has very narrow definitions. The Canadian court system seem to be ignoring the parameters of this definition.

I can suffer from a neurosis...doesnt give me the right to go behead anyone.
Thing I am hearing more of, and others here are troubled about,is the tendency of the courts and the media to place blame on everyone but the accused. If a heinous act is committed it is the fault of the relatives for not seeing this persons instability....it is the fault of the agencies for not offering the right kind of councilling etc. It is everyones fault but the person who committed the act. This doesnt make sense. I think this thinking is whats escalating crime rates. We are seeing some awful crimes here in Alberta and somewhere along the line...I blame ourselves for putting up with it. Think we lost our backbone.

[rjt65]

Tempest I will disagree, hope it does not offend you or anyone.

It is what it is--even if he or others did get turned away --he is still responsible.... don't care if God the devil or a flying pig with red eyes is speaking to a person. they kill, they need to be terminated.

IMO Society is getting to "PC" these days, blaming everyone and taking no personable responsibility.

PS- My mom worked in a hospital Psyc. ward for over 15 years.





Maybe I was playing with you a little here. But that is what happens when you make sweeping generalizations about the mentally ill. When the same can be said about psychologist, as they vary in their personalities and skill. Watch: "Never Talk To Strangers" starring Antonio Bandaras

Right across the border in Minnesota mentally ill are being turned away and murders are happening because of it. Beheadings.

A Prescription for Mayhem
**How shrinking psych wards spell trouble
Beth Hawkins
Published on January 11, 2006

"Before Stephen Miles killed his stepmother, he tried to check himself into the hospital. ........According to a criminal complaint filed last week in Dakota County District Court,the 23-year-old Eagan man killed his stepmother, Maris Jo Miles, with a hatchet blow to the head and then decapitated her with a knife.

Complete story here: http://www.citypages.com/2006-01-11/news/a-prescription-for-mayhem/ (http://www.stephenking.com/forums/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.citypages.com% 2F2006-01-11%2Fnews%2Fa-prescription-for-mayhem%2F)

Now you be the decider. A man on grey hound chops of a mans head with no history of mental illness. A man in minnesota with dx of schizophrenia is denied psychiatric hospitalization and later beheads his step mother.

How do we know the greyhound guy did not get turned away for mental illness treatment?

[gclark]

I have to take the eye for an eye view on this.

So "God" told him to kill his friend because he was evil.. It probably isn't hard to act crazy, or at least crazy enough to make people believe you were crazy when you did bad things. So where will it end? so if i wanted to, i could go today, kill a couple of people at random, and then when i got caught tell everyone that it was because god said they were evil?

to me it's a load of hogwash for us to declare him not criminally liable for the killing... i say, send him to the mental institute for a month, get a phsyc eval, some meds if he needs it, and off to the penitentary with him.

[finalfantasyVII]

:eek::grr: I just found this and people are sick..like he didn't know what he was doing??? and no one tried to stop him?? ...Good reading..Mark, FFVII

[staropeace]

Nobody tried to stop him on the bus because it happened so quickly. He was sitting by the young man who had headphones in and was sleeping. The killer had enjoyed a cigarette break with some other passengers during a stop and went back and sat down....acting normal. He whipped out this knife and started stabbing...by the time the other passengers understood what was going on,the young man was probably dead. There were children and babies on the bus ....in a confined space. Once folks realized what he had done and that he had this wicked stabbing instrument...they got off the bus and barred him in there.. Nobody wanted a crazy guy with a dismembered head in his fist to escape that bus.

I knew him enough to know what he likes on his burgers and to meet him coming back and forth from his apartment. He didnt act like he had a hard time in a social environment.