" When a top-ranking law official has to ensure to the world that a person will not be killed or tortured when returned to his home country, it is...quite something. "
This will be the kinda crap that will be bitin' us in the ass for who freakin' knows how long, oh whatta historical position of strength it makes for us as a nation...but I'm sure the history books will be kind..*SNRT!*..no worries I'm not drunk.
Thanks for the response (a little cynical at the beginning) though it is a little hard to follow. I am not defending Cheney or even water-boarding necessarily. I just think it is very easy to criticize these decisions from the comfort of your living room in a country where you are free to say what you like. It is hardly a disingenuous scenario if you consider the men and women serving our country as brothers and sisters (if you consider them at all). This is real world if you are in a hostile country, leaving the wire on a regular basis and being attacked frequently. If you should be captured on one of these little trips, you will be subject to real torture, not just a little water up your nose. Maybe a drill bit through the old knee cap or a little electricity in the genitals. The intelligence gained from captured insurgents saves lives and not just overseas. Have you forgotten (like many Americans seem to) that we were attacked on American soil and almost 4,000 of us lost our lives in this coordinated attack? Nope, not disingenuous at all if you consider our Soldiers as family...like I do. They are daily serving and dying to defend your freedoms. Like the freedom of speech to make cynical post....
Very aware with Sai King's liberal leanings. Just one of the great things about America is our ability to not only feel how we like but talk about it...out loud (yep, you can thank a Soldier for that). This comment just hit close to home for me because of my personal experience. Just giving another perspective...
with all due respect, BG, i thank the constitution and the founding fathers for that freedom...and all stripes of american citizens in a wide variety of important ways for helping to defend that
however, i really do not believe there is a single person here that needs to be reminded about anything about 9/11...i have family living in NYC...i had family that, up until two weeks before, worked in the tower complex (unbeknownst, they switched jobs)...i spent a few worried days wondering...i, unlike so many others, got to be lucky
...i also had friends in OKC, just down the road a bit...so, by your reasoning, should we not now round up and torture our own local terroristsfirst to make sure we are safe (and to prove to the world that we are being fair in our newfound powers) ...how 'bout the klan...the posse commitatus...how about the right-to-lifers shooting Drs in thier churches, in their kitchens...blowing up clinics...or, better yet, the oath keepers, all of whom, amongst many others, have forsaken their duty to freedom for all...have shown just as much hatred and destruction toward america and all its inherent freedoms as any foreigner...where are you on that, sir ?
nor have i forgotten that the only reason most of our troops in libya were ever in harms way was due to extreme manipulation of facts by the then CIC...so, why you're busy chomping at all those liberals...remember, please, that they were correct on most of those issues...which means cheney was wrong
and, by diverting attention and resources to libya, bush/cheney completely left the troops in afghanistan out in the cold...and, now, due to that B/C incompetence, the people of there will undoubtedly suffer even more when we leave
the continued insinuation that somehow we've all forgotten things simply because we don't fall on our knees everytime someone decides how it's should be/gonna be...what is right...what is true...is ridiculous
..and lacks a sense of realistic perspective
it is also pretty clear, from your posts, that sai king has nothing on you when it comes to political bias...thanks for repeatedly proving my point, tho...
As for political bias....guilty as charged. As to where to draw the line, I agree that this is terribly difficult. I said, and repeat here, that I am not a proponent of torture, I just think many are too quick to judge the actions of others without understanding their position. Just don't confuse crime by American citizens with acts of war by Islamist terrorist.
I am a little confused about by your Libya comments. If you meant to say Iraq, they make a little more sense. Without a doubt, we invaded Iraq based on faulty intelligence. This intelligence was fed to us by the Iraqi government to a large extent, because they wanted us to think they had WMD. We also moved too quickly when we invaded. Racing to Baghdad instead of securing our rear as we gained territory which would have stabilized the region. This was a Cheney / Rumsfeld battle plan, neither of which has ever served a day in the military. However, I don't remember anyone asking me if I thought it was a good idea to invade. The military saddles up when our civilian leadership issues the orders. The Iraqis will run their country how they choose. Their tribal battles contain a level of hate that is hard to imagine. We should leave them alone until they become a threat to the U.S. by training the terrorist that want to wipe all us infidels (read as not Muslim) off the face of the earth.
The freedoms set forth by the constitution would have long ago been taken from us all if not for our military. We are doing a pretty good job of taking them from ourselves by electing a government that wants to run every aspect of our lives. Based on your comments (and mine) we are far apart politically. I respect you opinions, even if I don't agree with them. Thanks for the dialogue. If we (all of America, not just you and I) ever get to a point where we all agree, we will live in a very dangerous place as the extremist (whether conservative or liberal) take over. America has her problems, but still the greatest country on earth.
yeahh...ooops......mea culpa...libya ???? NOT !! iraq...yeah...foot deep in mouth....................what can i say ?
maybe....its all the drugs i took when i was younger...those flinstone chewables are addictive !!
(but i think i've used that canard before)
still....i dream of pink dinos....
an act of war is an act or war - shouldn't matter if it's tom down the street or achmed the chinese muslim anarchist...
an act of terrorism is an act of terrorism: it really doesn't matter which idiot is being stupid; i don't prescribe a different level of stupidity because of nationality when people are dying...
except that maybe i expect quite a bit more from folks who grew up...were educated here....live here....
all the people i mentioned....were supposed to be american citizens...to me, which means their treachery is far more immediate.
sorry...can't agree with the thought that our freedoms would've disappeared some time ago if not for the military...you seem to give an awful lot of weight, against the known history, as to what the military has been required to do at the behest of it's civilian masters...not in spite of
Last edited by guido tkp; July 30th, 2013 at 10:56 PM.
Couldn't agree more with what Pat Hat Trick Man said. To espouse water boarding even in a time of completely compelling circumstances? It's like saying "yes, we think it's okay for you to take your gun to Florida and shoot someone because they're ____________________ (fill in the blank with offending minority label) and they looked at you the wrong way, and you felt threatened - you'll get off scot-free because there's a lovely little law called Stand Your Ground."
Cheney is an untrustworthy moray eel who'd just as soon throw the military under the bus if it meant that he'd make more money via Halliburton. He and Rumsfeld have some serious karma coming to them.
Falmouth of the Mighty BlueGrass State and Commonwealth of Kentucky
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Re: Cheney comment and water-boarding
Man I wish I had the time...oh and thanks for coming back, I really didn't think you would, so I take some of that stuff back, honest & truly, just like I said I would.
Some quick jots...
1) Take those "liberal" comments and shove 'em, but thanks for that heads up about what your about, as if it wasn't apparent...this ain't a lib/con conversation, this ain't lib/con, this about the human condition and the standards we set, standard we, as those humans with so many conditions, have already set.
2) You obfuscate pretty well, but you don't give this group on this board much credit, pity that, and it makes you sound ridiculous.
3) Take your comment about remembering 9/11 and cram it, oh so freakin' hard...ain't one person on this board can't tell you exactly where they were and what they were doing that morning, pal, so that one earns you one big fat K.M.A., and if you really want to go down the great American memories road and how all this has historically come to be, you best pick up a history book or two I'm thinkin', 'cause me, I'll remember you all the way back to Eisenhower, so you really want to play a couple rounds of what do you remember & what do you know, then brotha I am your man.
4) Your real problem you claim, is the possible nerve of the ubiquitous arm chair quarterback, the sideline sitters that don't have the right, rather maybe, privilege, or something, to have the audacity to not only question, but even flat out condemn such myopic stupidity, right?...oops.
Well, there is an argument to made there, yes there is, I can see it, I understand it, but here's the thing, armchair quarterbacks sitting on the sidelines (in their easy chair in their underwear pickin' cheese doodle dust outta their naval), they don't actually own the team, but I assure you, Mr. King, and me, you, almost everybody on this board, does in fact own this team, lock, stock, barrel, and waterboard.
So yes indeed that sure as hell makes it easy, 'cause personally, I'm tired as hell of folks f'n up my goddamn team, and this fine venue we now call 'The Homeland' like this was all just lousy written fiction, by putting them, it, & us all, factually in more danger, and all for just by making my team look like a huge piece of hypocritical sh!t because a bunch of numbnut chicken hawks thought it a funtastically swell idea.
5) To say executive branch policy for state sanctioned torture saves lives is like defending the sale & use of tobacco for having saved countless millions of lives (it has, truly uncountable numbers, want me to prove it I'd more than happy to), hell, probably an entire nation on the brink of total economic collapse.
And so then shouldn't the executive branch make policy to then nationalize and encourage it's use, 'cause by your logic, tobacco is a most good & righteous thing, and it's use should not only be preserved, but by executive order.