what is god to you/what do you revere?

[the_last_gunslinger]

This is the next layer of the onion. If we got his route (as you suggest above) it means that the Bible is more less without meaning except that which is applied externally. It means people today just pick whatever individuals parts they like, interpretations they already agree with, and make the divine word fit them rather than the other way around. No matter how we try to dance around the subject, the Bible is either:

1. Infallible.
2. Fallible.
3. A tool through which external meaning is applied not unlike a deck of Tarot cards.

I prefer to think that it is somewhere between options one and two, that is, mostly true, but containing some errors that resulted in the loss of many plain and precious truths.

Let's linger on that third option. If, as you suggest, the book can be infallible because the meanings and rules change but only when divinely inspired, the Bible is being transformed into Ouija Board wherein a select few (the loudest or most theatrical) get to decide what means what. In such a situation, how exactly is a normal person to tell the divine truth from a charlatan? The Bible becomes like statistics wherein anyone can prove nearly anything they want.

I believe I have an answer for this problem, but it would involve delving into the purely theological. I would need to lay out, at least in part, my own religious views regarding the nature of scripture and the process whereby revelation comes. I'm not adverse to doing so, but I'm a little hesitant to derail the thread so far by turning this into a thread to promote my own religious beliefs.

But from a purely academic or logical standpoint, your statement is true. There is no way to empirically prove what is from God and what is not.

The funny thing about #3 is that is solves all the logical problems for people claiming #1. If you believe the Bible is infallible, and you can make it thus simply by interpreting it however makes it true, you have accomplished a self-fulfilling prophecy. We see this discussion come up very often when people discuss Genesis. How many days did it take God to everything? It is measured in days. Is this literal? Some would argue yes. But those seeking to reconcile science with theology counter with, "ah but what does a day mean to God?" They can interpret the statement in a way that still can be supported with just a little bit of legwork.

Good point, though I don't think that altering your religious views according to your own increased learning of the natural world means that an error is present.

[guido tkp]

i just gotta say...



to both RG and LG for a very civil, quite entertaining...even enlightening series of posts


SAH-LUTE !!!

[sonofcana]

To me god is nothing more than our worst attempt to explain the origin of everything.

[guido tkp]

..or (not to step on toes: beg pardon, sai SOC)...a vain attempt to explain everything ??

[sonofcana]

Quoting hitchens. "...our first and therefore worst attempt to explain the origins of everything" The Bible purports to explain the origins of everything from the universe to humankind. And it does so badly.

[guido tkp]

can't necessarily blame 'the bible'...either it is the ultimate word of god...and thus god is flawed

or it is ultimately just a book heavily edited by mankind...and thus it proves gods point that were are fallible from the get-go

without more evidence, we have to put the blame squarely where it belongs...on us

never mind how often those other guys get it all wrong, either...
y'know...the pagans like the muslims, the buddhists, the hindus...etc, etc, etc....

they make fundemental mistakes now and throughout history...but they cannot blame 'the bible' for their faults...nor can we blame 'the bible' for their faults

so...either god is flawed ('cause he 'created' us (and/or that book) so imperfectively) or we are flawed for not really learning from all our asundry mistakes lo these many eons

[sonofcana]

I don't blame the bible for anything. Reading the bible left me with serious doubts not just about christianity, but doubts as to the existence of god. I suppose i have the bible to thank for that. I found the bible to be deeply flawed and self contradictory, not to mention downright unbelievable. I don't recall mentioning people of other faiths, but personally i believe that all religion is wrong. When it comes to fiction, give me a Stephen King novel any day.

[guido tkp]

hey...SOC...please reread your post @255...that whole second sentence ??

look...i don't disagree with a thing you've said...i've read the bible a couple three or more times: and you're quite right; it ain't the best work of fiction around...and i specifically included other religions (and, by proxy, their books of power) to illustrate the illegitimacy of all...not just the one...

as the richman-gordman guy used to intone: it's the same thiiiinnnnggggg !!!!

but they all do purport to tell a story that is of great import to far, far too many people who will, shall we say, get all up yo grill if'n you don't respond to it intelligently: there've been people shot, hanged, burned at the stake, whipped, drawn and quartered, blown up, had thier heads chopped off, been stoned to death, immolated...and you'd be silly beyond all reason not to understand that, even in todays polite society, there lurks just below the surface a mockery of humanity just waiting to reteach you and i a thing or two about how to properly view those books...

don't believe me ?? ask bernard slepien...or george tiller...or the people on any of those planes on 9/11...

i, too, find nearly all organized religion to be an utter waste of time...

but, because those man-made objects of lust and power are totally screwed up doesn't mean that the baby should be thrown out with the bath water...there is a difference...

while there is no proof of god or his/her/its existance...there is no proof to the contrary either...no matter how hitchens or others wish to portray it

in the end, we just do not know...that is why it is called 'faith'...and that is why intelligent people should insist that it remain as such...and be respectful of each other along whatever path the beam leads them

[sonofcana]

What is your problem? The question being asked here is "What is god to you?". God means nothing to me. I live in a free country, which is why i can and will continue to express my beliefs without fear of torture and death. Should we all just keep our heads down for fear of the wrath of religious fanatics? I respect every person's right to believe in whatever they wish to believe in, i simply have no respect for religion. I do not mock people personally for their beliefs (my wife is a devout Roman Catholic). She knows that i am an atheist, but for some reason she does not feel the urge to burn me alive for apostasy. And whilst you and i might respect the freedom of religion of others, religious fanatics display no such tolerance.
On the subject of 9/11, are you suggesting that all those people died because they offended islam? Do you believe that any murder in the name of god is acceptable? Are you suggesting that we just roll over for every thin skinned fanatic who is so insecure in their own faith they cannot tolerate any other point of view?

[guido tkp]

wow !! not only kinda tetchy...but continually able to show the amazing ability to totally misread and misinterpret almost everything i had to say...

do you usually slam into people who generally agree with you...or do you just like to overlook what is being said so you can spout off ??

i'd suggest rereading my posts...you'll find in almost all instances...you've completely misunderstood everything i've said

as to 9/11...well that is pretty much exactly what the hijackers were thinking...maybe you thought they just got the wrong directions ?

i never said anything about murder in the name of god as being acceptable: i said we, those who do not agree with religious fanaticism, should be consistently aware that sitting right next us may very well be some flaming idiot who would be willing to kill or die for what they consider to be a higher cause...once again: try reading what i wrote

and i never suggested you or i or anyone else should roll over to anyone...quite the contrary...that is why i mentioned, in a what i thought was a friendly-like manner, that people who think like you or i ought to remain aware...

sorry i jilted your tree of illogic, but i'm not looking for a fight here...too bad you seem to be

i'm done with this one til he grows up, ma'

flame off...johnny