What to do about North Korea?

[Sepia and Dust]

North Korea threatens nuclear strike against the US (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/07/us-korea-north-attack-idUSBRE9260BR20130307):



North Korea threatened the United States on Thursday with a preemptive nuclear strike, raising the level of rhetoric just before the U.N. Security Council approved new sanctions against the reclusive country.



How do you think the US should handle this?

North Korea has a habit of using threatening rhetoric whenever the UN sanctions them. Either they're trying to bluff and bully the world into giving them what they want or (more likely, in my opinion) they're trying to enhance an already-prevalent the world is our enemy mindset within the North Korean people, who starve and suffer while the country's political elite live in luxury.

Estimates are that one in ten North Koreans starve to death.

Of course, the threat is all bluff and bluster, and it's simply impossible for them to attack the US in any meaningful way, let alone with a nuke. If they were actually capable of doing so, China (their ally) would likely destroy them even before the US could retaliate. So... no chance of an actual attack happening.

America and the UN have decided to roll their eyes at the threats and to tighten the embargos even more.


I don't agree. Now, I don't like war; I was (and remain) strongly opposed to the war in Iraq, and I wish that we'd pull out of the war in Afghanistan. Threatening (however hollowly) to launch a "pre-emptive" nuke at the US is beyond the pale, and starving them out really only kills more and more innocent civilians.

Since we are technically still at war with North Korea, I think that a large-scale (conventional) strike against them is in order. I'm not saying Bomb them back to the stone age! or anything, but we ought to take out every single nuclear-related facility in their country, including their so-called "suicide sub", and put a stop to this stupidity once and for all.

No ground troops, no building democracy, no Korean War 2.0... just one big stream of booms, a smug "You were saying?", then back business as usual.


What do you think? Are sanctions enough?

[Walter Oobleck]

Send Dennis back...get a little one-on-one going, the tiny dictator and Dennis...have Dennis, you know, like throw the game? That or have him and what's-his-name...Kim Something...have them practice the Owen Meany shot. Probably do wonders for the little guy...all that hate headed his way...him feeling bullied, no recourse but to lob missiles around. Nanoo-nor-oo, sair-ung-hey.

[Sepia and Dust]

Thank you! :)

[mjs9153]

Problem is,how would that be taken by others in the world community,would it escalate into another ww if NKorea has backers?I agree with you,I think that is a ploy by the leaders to instill hate against us in their people and deflect it from themselves,the ones robbing them blind and starving them..no easy answer there.:dunno:

[Lily Sawyer]

I vote we try to get them back to the table in peaceful negotiations.
One goal would be to formally end the war/truce once and for all.
Another would be to make it impossible via U.N. sanctions for the ruling regime to have access to their luxury goods of choice - racing cars, yachts, jewelry, gourmet comestibles, Western electronic equipment - should they choose to not negotiate. Make it illegal for any country to trade with them.
Another goal would be to curtail North Korea's ability to smuggle in cash via diplomatic pouches. Lean on surrounding countries to tighten their borders with North Korea and on any country who maintains diplomatic ties to them (hello, China?) to watch all diplomatic traffic and transactions.
As for their desire to continue uranium-enrichment technology, well, that's up to them, as long as they have access to uranium. Can't stop what's happening inside their borders.

I don't think taking out all North Korean nuclear facilities is the answer. China will become involved and that is far more uncool than any threat from North Korea. We owe China way too much money and they won't exactly welcome the distraction of North Korean posturing.

[Sepia and Dust]

Another would be to make it impossible via U.N. sanctions for the ruling regime to have access to their luxury goods of choice - racing cars, yachts, jewelry, gourmet comestibles, Western electronic equipment - should they choose to not negotiate.


Recently, they did just that very thing:



The resolution specifies some luxury items North Korea's elite is not allowed to import, such as yachts, racing cars, luxury automobiles and certain types of jewelry. This is intended to close a loophole that had allowed countries to decide for themselves what constitutes a luxury good.




China will become involved and that is far more uncool than any threat from North Korea. We owe China way too much money and they won't exactly welcome the distraction of North Korean posturing.


Even China is already tired of North Korea's crap.



China's U.N. Ambassador Li Baodong said Beijing wanted to see "full implementation" of the new U.N. Security Council resolution that tightens financial restrictions on Pyongyang and cracks down on its attempts to ship and receive banned cargo.

[staropeace]

I do not know what we should do. Canadian is not too happy with North Korea or the UN for that matter. They are a dangerous lot...that is for sure.

[Robert Gray]

There isn't anything more to be done with North Korea than is already being done. The United States has closed ranks with all of the Security Council and leveled new sanctions. This means China is on board and without China's veto, North Korea has nothing but a bluff. The game is over. Short of actually going to war, which we know China will not back them on, nor can they support beyond 2-3 months, all they can do is saber-rattle.

We don't need to do anything with them. The last thing we want to do is reward bad behavior. The sanctions get applied and enforced and they get ignored otherwise. When they demonstrate good behavior, then we reward them.

[PatInTheHat]

Whatta great question:y:!
Why hell, it's been a great question for a waaayyyy loooong time, even longer then the Korean War TV show M*A*S*H aired even, and that was way longer than the actual war, but not nearly as long as the "war's" cease fire has lasted, I mean that's become a god damned military industrial complex cottage industry all of it's very own.
And so now after one whack-a-whackjob after another we got the current whack-a-whackjob still talkin' smack, 'k, oh but wait, now we have a whackjob with nuclear weapon capabilities talkin' smack, and now we're concerned.
Sure wish we were maybe a tad wee more concerned pre October 2006, and hey just for the fun of it, why not just after, but here we are, a whackjob with real deal world widely accepted to be the real deal, 'atom bombs', the 'mushroom cloud' makers, the big scary that our ol' prez, you know, what's his name, and Dead Eye Dickster liked to blather on & on, fear mongering on & on about, while these nuts were actually building them, so whatta we gonna do about it NOW:dunno:?
Ya know, I'm thinkin just what we have been, basically we'll just wait, I mean really, what else can we do, especially now, outside of starting a world war, yeah okay, a nuclear holocaust, we have no control what-so-ever within those borders, we can only continually attempt to influence influence to do some influencin', and wait.
Oh jeez, remember those heady days when all ya had to offer a hype believin' despot, was a tax exempt beer distributorship & chain of liquor stores, an all fee paid condo on a beach near Disney, and maybe a Motel 6, justa stop threatening to be the next bad azz character in his latest mental Bond thriller, ahhh such good times:rolleyes:!

[Mr.Ace]

They are a dangerous lot...that is for sure.

Dangerous? For whom? They haven't weapons and forces to attack anyone else but South Koria. And this is impossible too, because of Chine ( they don't need the War at Borderlines).

[GNTLGNT]

...I say we force them to make Rodman a naturalized citizen...that'll learn 'im.....

[SHEEMIEE]

http://www.stephenking.com/community/showthread.php/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by staropeace http://www.stephenking.com/community/showthread.php/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.stephenking.com/community/showthread.php/showthread.php?p=571279#post571279)
They are a dangerous lot...that is for sure.



Dangerous? For whom? They haven't weapons and forces to attack anyone else but South Koria. And this is impossible too, because of Chine ( they don't need the War at Borderlines).



I only recall one nation using such force. They,re a pretty dangerous lot come to think of it ;;D.

[guido tkp]

let's not fool ourselves...they have used what little resources they have to create weapons, very possibly weapons of mass destruction, and an obscene loyalty that might just trigger a terrible moment...

al quaeda was not a superpower when they attacked the US...several times

send in the drones

[Sepia and Dust]

On further research, it seems that North Korea is simply honeycombed with underground bunkers housing their artillery and conventional missiles, and all of them are pointed at Seoul. We'd have to be willing to sacrifice the largest US-friendly city in all of Asia before we attacked, and that's farther than I'm willing to go just to prove a point.

[MrsSmeej]

:wink2:

Let's give a portfolio to Dennis Rodman, fast.
Who knows how much longer his diplomacy will last...
Maybe get a pick-up game together? Putin would;
And I bet Obama could take Kim Jong-un... He's good.

[Spideyman]

North Korea has declared the 1953 armistice invalid.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/11/world/asia/north-korea-armistice/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


U.S., South Korea begin military exercises as North ends armistice
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/11/world/asia/south-korea-military-exercises/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[fushingfeef]

All we can do is be ready to defend ourselves...I don't think us striking first is a good idea. If NK tries to send a nuke to us it will be shot down. I think they are just barking loudly now but won't bite first.

[guido tkp]

yup...they've done this sort of thing before...lotso times

so, who knows...

still.....

:umm: where's the real jim phelps when you need him.... :down:

[Terry B]

I say let them try something stupid. It'll be a suicide mission and then no more North Korea to worry about. Then maybe President Alphabets in Iran will take notice and back off.

[Lily Sawyer]

I say let them try something stupid. It'll be a suicide mission and then no more North Korea to worry about. Then maybe President Alphabets in Iran will take notice and back off.

I think President I'mADemiGogue doesn't pay attention to much in world news. He was certainly asleep when the Holocaust was covered in history class, because he insists it never happened and that it was all fabricated. North Korea is but a blip on his radar - they eat pork, and besides, I don't think he's much of a fan of kimchee.

[Mr.Ace]

let's not fool ourselves...they have used what little resources they have to create weapons, very possibly weapons of mass destruction, and an obscene loyalty that might just trigger a terrible moment...

al quaeda was not a superpower when they attacked the US...several times

send in the drones

It's not correct to compare North Koria with Al Quaeda. Comparison between a state and terroristic organization. And what can do North Koria against U.S.A.? Are they what, want to commit suiside? Obviosly, in case with Al quaeda they wanted a war in the region (Middle-East). They've got it, because war is their bread, their money. They've got an intrest and reasons to permanent war. And what reasons for North Koria in war with U.S.A.? To be conquered like Iraq, or may be repeat Hiroshima's lot?

[tenngolfer]

They're starving, some reports have them eating their children to survive. I would suspect that creates a lot of hatred toward the leadership, but they deflect it pointing a finger at the USA. I say bomb them with cans of Spam and boxes of twinkies, with little notes saying we wanted to send more, but hey, your leaders said we couldn't.

Or do what a friend suggested, figure out what the war would cost in dollars (what's Irag now, a $trillion), then make them an offer to buy the country. $200 billion? The leaders get to live wealthy on a tropical island, the starving people get McD's, cable tv, and cell phones.

[AdamShadowz]

Nuclear Warfare is and always will be a bluff ever since America proved how devastating and how far they are willing to go in order to beat the soviets or the russians or even china if they decided not to honor the profitable agreements they make. The whole thing is a propaganda operation. When the dictator begins to age he will either back down or be taken down because of the unsure future surrounding the world war arena.

[mjs9153]

Easier for their leaders to continue fostering hatred against the US,and hope they get someone major to kick in on their side..can this be the reason homeland security bought a billion bullets,armored personnel carriers,etc.,I saw on another thread? Can't be expecting a war on US soil,can they? Nah..

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.5015715205742729&pid=15.1

[GNTLGNT]

Nuclear Warfare is and always will be a bluff ever since America proved how devastating and how far they are willing to go in order to beat the soviets or the russians or even china if they decided not to honor the profitable agreements they make. The whole thing is a propaganda operation. When the dictator begins to age he will either back down or be taken down because of the unsure future surrounding the world war arena.

...I see where you're coming from...but I still think it's well within the realm of possibility, that one of these tinpot dictators WILL be nutso-cuckoo enough sometime to push the button, so as to initiate an "I told you so!" armageddon...

[guido tkp]

while not many know for sure, the rumor mill has for sometime said NK might just have missiles that can reach US targets, even if only hawaii....which, last i looked....that's part of the US: it was good enough to get us in a war once before, and i'm not sure the wee little dictator is all so brainiac-ish...

the only thing we do know for sure is they certainly have spent pretty much all their $$ on such deadly things...and it only takes 1 w/atomic abilites to create havoc...are we ready to take that chance ?

a terroritic organization, hell bent on creating havoc, is a terroristic organization: doesn't matter to the dead whether they were a country or a group...you get the same thing: lot's of dead people.

they've already attacked, in the last few years, their neighbors to the south...on several occasions...and cold-bloodedly killed...THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT REALITY !!

when your country is ravaged by your own misdeeds, there's nothing like fomenting a war, even if you can't win, in order to rally the stupid to get behind your sorry ass and fight !!

besides...there is not a %100 guarantee that the lil' duce is actually in charge of that sort of thing: it could very well be a buncha generals who hold the strings...and they, being military types (after all this time if sitting around and waiting), may not give a hoot about anything but flexing their knuckles

i'm NOT sayin' the wee tyke IS ready to go off the deep end...i am sayin' we should not just shrug our shoulders and go all ho-hum about it, either...

we looked the other way when GBush & Co. thought the US intell was wrong about AQ...and look what happened...the world thought hitler was nothing...we never gave much thought to whether the japanese could really inflict damage on us...

history has a way of sneaking up and biting you on the posterior...especially when you go all egotistical and think you're ahead of the cue ball...

see Der GG's post @ #25 right above...

[Robert Gray]

Yes. We are ready to take that chance, largely because we are pretty certain we can shoot down any missile they fire. These are the realities:

1. North Korea has been able to count on China as an ally since the first Korean war. It was, in fact, China who came in at the end and forced us back.
2. China does not want, if it can be avoided, a mainland war.
3. China has come over to our way of thinking on North Korea and has supported sanctions sending N. Korea a clear message, i.e. DO NOT.
4. If we preempt and strike North Korea before she tries something, we flush all our gains with China and the International Community away.
5. If North Korea tries something first, our hands will be untied and we will likely have China as a military power on the ground which would end the thing quick.
6. North Korea is unlikely to have a delivery system that can hit the broadside of a barn.
7. Preemptive action would also devastate South Korea as the North could certainly do a lot of damage (and would) there, losing us our last mainland staunch ally.
8. War in the region, particularly one in which we require China against North Korea (we would if only to keep them out as allies on N. Korean side) would allow China to grab Taiwan.
9. The cost in military trades w/China behind closed doors would cripple our reach in Asia.
10. In the end, the war would end the so-called North Korean threat, destroying both North and South Korea, increase the hegemony of China, and leave us with less reach.

Everything is connected in the realm of international politics and very little can be done without starting one kind of avalanche or another. North Korea has been dying for at least two decades. She rattles the saber now and then because it got her concessions in the past (see Clinton era). The best thing that can be done is simply ignore them beyond ratcheting up sanctions and continuing the same old preparations for the worst. If war comes, we need them to start it. We won't gain much by it, but at least we won't bankrupt our gains in the international community at the same time. In the end, nothing had changed since the first Korean War. We cannot beat the North without going to war with China, something we really don't want to do now. The only way we can ever deal with this issue is if they attack first and remove the Chinese connection themselves. Odds are they won't attack. They are rattling the saber just like always. The regime simply wants to survive and we are their "boogeyman" by which they hold on to power. It doesn't cost them anything to rattle the saber. It costs them everything to go to war. They know that too.

[Sepia and Dust]

Certainly, North Korea can do us no harm. They're years away from becoming a nuclear power and years away from a delivery system that can strike much farther away than Tokyo or Guam.

Years away, however, means that the clock is ticking. Eventually, we're going to have this same discussion again, only with slightly different starting assumptions.

[guido tkp]

UNCLE !! greater minds prevail...lumpy the warmongering troll skulks back to his cave...dragging his knuckles...rejected like a caveman...

:oo: ...awwww, but it's hard to beat RG's logic...why'd he hafta go and get all thinkin'-like, again

...and here i was hoping for our first all-drone war...put all those video gaming skills to some good use

still...it woulda been a short war, that one...the NK's woulda massed at the border...ready to pounce...when the speaker system from the south woulda yelled out : 'soups on !! real chicken in our chicken soup !' and they all woulda defected

[Robert Gray]

UNCLE !! greater minds prevail...lumpy the warmongering troll skulks back to his cave...dragging his knuckles...rejected like a caveman...

:oo: ...awwww, but it's hard to beat RG's logic...why'd he hafta go and get all thinkin'-like, again

...and here i was hoping for our first all-drone war...put all those video gaming skills to some good use

still...it woulda been a short war, that one...the NK's woulda massed at the border...ready to pounce...when the speaker system from the south woulda yelled out : 'soups on !! real chicken in our chicken soup !' and they all woulda defected

That is a nice thought (and funny), but we both know it isn't true. Patriotism isn't a trait that belongs just to Americans. It would be ugly, horrible war. I have a good friend who is in the military (a Linguist) whose job it is to sit on the border with our South Korean allies and listen to radio chatter. He has a good idea of things on the ground both in North and South Korea. It suffices to say this, sometimes the dog with rabies is best left to die in the cage rather than risk getting bit when you go inside.

[guido tkp]

believe me, i get that, RG: that 'P' word is, and can be, strong in virtually every country: even the really bad ones...

...one never knows in these situations whether the 'patriotism' (or...mind control ) will hold up under the onslaught that would inevitably follow some crass, powerful gesture on the part of the NK leadership: we all thought saddam husseins troops would last a wee bit longer...same w/the taliban in afghanistan

hunger and devastation can do interesting things to a man...or a country.

[jimson]

Certainly, North Korea can do us no harm. They're years away from becoming a nuclear power and years away from a delivery system that can strike much farther away than Tokyo or Guam.

Years away, however, means that the clock is ticking. Eventually, we're going to have this same discussion again, only with slightly different starting assumptions.

I thought it was generally accepted that NK was already a nuclear power. Considering that both the US and Russia developed ICBMs more than 40 years ago, how long do we really think it will be before NK has them?

I don't think the US will launch any kind of strike without at least tacit approval from China, and if they ever felt the situation warranted that, like others here, my guess is that they would intervene themselves.

The answer to the question is "not much."

[Robert Gray]

I thought it was generally accepted that NK was already a nuclear power. Considering that both the US and Russia developed ICBMs more than 40 years ago, how long do we really think it will be before NK has them?

It is generally accepted (known) that Israel is a nuclear power. North Korea (like most places on the planet) understands the theoretical basis to be a nuclear power but still has to do all the practical work, i.e. the stuff that makes it an effective weapon.


I don't think the US will launch any kind of strike without at least tacit approval from China, and if they ever felt the situation warranted that, like others here, my guess is that they would intervene themselves.
The answer to the question is "not much."

Exactly. China is never going to give us a green light to strike North Korea (which is next door to them). They would intervene themselves first. For those of you listening in, imagine if Mexico started working on a weapons program and throwing threats at Russia or China. Do you think the United States would give a green light to those countries to strike Mexico?

[guido tkp]

yes, RG...the US might !! especially if rand paul wins the next presidential election: i do believe he just won the CPAC straw vote...

y'know those tea party types: if they can get someone lse to do it...why not !!

and it'd solve some of that pesky immigrant problem so many of them seem to be obsessed with :wink2:

[jimson]

It is generally accepted (known) that Israel is a nuclear power. North Korea (like most places on the planet) understands the theoretical basis to be a nuclear power but still has to do all the practical work, i.e. the stuff that makes it an effective weapon.


I was under the impression that they had already developed warheads. Not sure where I got that idea though.

[Robert Gray]

I was under the impression that they had already developed warheads. Not sure where I got that idea though.

They have, as have many countries we don't talk about. Having a nuclear device (I hesitate to call it a warhead) isn't the same thing. The delivery system is what matters. North Korea most likely has bombs of the size and weight of Fat Man and/or Little Boy during World War II. Once you get the basic physics in place, there is a long, slow process of trying to get the bomb small enough to carry it to the target in a missile. That, of course, requires you to build accurate missiles which is a technology in and of itself.

[Elihunt]

I feel bad for North Korea. The people there are so censored, some don't even know that men have walked on the moon. A lot of them also have diseases and are starving. :(

[Haunted]

I feel bad for North Korea. The people there are so censored, some don't even know that men have walked on the moon. A lot of them also have diseases and are starving. :(

It was recently reported that one out of ten North Koreans starve to death daily. The monies we and other countries have sent to NK in the past was supposed to feed the people but instead fed the army. I say stop support. But wait, the UN with China's yea vote, has already said that and now the US is being threatened by that little pipsqueak???? Solve me that riddle, please!

[Sepia and Dust]

It was recently reported that one out of ten North Koreans starve to death daily. The monies we and other countries have sent to NK in the past was supposed to feed the people but instead fed the army.


That could be at least somewhat understandable, but the grunts in the NK army are almost as malnourished as the peasants. The aid-money went to the people who already own yachts.




I say stop support. But wait, the UN with China's yea vote, has already said that and now the US is being threatened by that little pipsqueak???? Solve me that riddle, please!

It's not a credible threat, at least not at this point in time.

[guido tkp]

'tis true, S&D...they are not considered to be a credible threat...

but, then again....that's exactly what the powers that be thought about Al Qaeda... :down:

[Robert Gray]

'tis true, S&D...they are not considered to be a credible threat...

but, then again....that's exactly what the powers that be thought about Al Qaeda... :down:

Al Qaeda was not (and is not) a credible "military" threat. Al Qaeda wasn't (and isn't) a country. Apples and oranges. Terrorism, i.e. the use of weapons of mass destruction (designed or improvised) against targets is something we all must live with in a modern age. It should not be the measure we use to preemptively attack anyone and anything that looks at us funny. That would be the surest way to throw us (and the world) into World War III. That would be the real "big one" as well as the "last one." Today we play for all the marbles wherein one mistake can end everything. This is why even countries that hate each other like India and Pakistan manage to hold off on war (both are Nuclear Powers). Their justifications and mutual threats are CREDIBLE and imminent and they also refuse to take cavalier steps because they know all to well the outcome.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a hawk or a dove. Nations are super-organisms and they live and compete in an ever shrinking world. There are times when we must fight. There might even be times that we must preempt (but these are extremely rare), but when you are playing for keeps, when EVERYTHING rests on the gambles you make, it is best to be patient and wait for the sure thing. It is far better to take your lumps and keep on trucking rather than to be rash and come to a full stop. Our leaders (and those of other countries) understand this fact. This is why the United States, for example, hasn't gone to war with any country actually cable to defending itself against us or with an interested allies (who can defend it) in many decades.

[MrsSmeej]

Kim Jong-un is making threats again... The guy is nuts.
Doesn't seem to realize, despite the budget cuts,
We can always find the funds to fight if we're attacked.
Now his ties to Russia and the Chinese may have cracked.

It makes countries nervous when a neighbor rocks the boat.
North Korea's neighbors have a U.N. Council vote.
They've agreed to sanctions since the Hermit Kingdom has
Proved its newest leader is a suicidal spaz.

I bet Putin's wishing Kim Jong-un would shut his mouth;
Stop with making threats against Koreans in the south.
Let the Chinese deal with him for now. They keep him fed;
Propped his dad and grandpa up and look where that has led.

Now they have a lunatic who's slipping off his leash.
Can't believe they didn't see this problem coming. Sheesh!
Not as if the family tree could give them cause for hopes;
If you're planting cabbage, you get cabbages... You dopes.

:glare:

[fljoe0]

We have a history with North Korea. They start acting crazy and we draw up a treaty, they sign it and we give them a bunch of money. A couple years will go by and they start acting crazy again, we draw up a new treaty and give them a bunch of money. Anyone see a pattern?

[Robert Gray]

We have a history with North Korea. They start acting crazy and we draw up a treaty, they sign it and we give them a bunch of money. A couple years will go by and they start acting crazy again, we draw up a new treaty and give them a bunch of money. Anyone see a pattern?

This is absolutely correct. The only reason North Korea is rattling the saber is because it has worked for them in the past. Each time they do it, they have to ramp it up to a louder rattle because each time the cry wolf we care less. We have finally reached the point where we are ignoring them (and rightly so).

[fljoe0]

Here is my overly simplistic view of this situation (things are more complex than this but this is my large picture view):

Stay out of North Korea and let China deal with them. If we leave North Korea alone, China will have to deal with them. Does anyone think that China wants some unstable nuclear country in their back yard attacking their trading partners? As long as we are spending our resources on trying to deal with North Korea, there is no need for China to waste their resources on the problem. China is busy building a gigantic military, let them use it and keep ours out of it.

[Chuggs]

I don't know what to do about it, other than what we are doing. If we bombed them, I don't think China would do anything, but you never know. But, and this is a strong but, if they were to actually do anything violent towards us, then we should retaliate swiftly and and with force, then back away again. We WOULD NOT need to rebuild them. That is what always gets us into a mess, and costs us a lot of money. But I think that all this is is North K. showing their a**es again. Tighten the restricions, maybe someday they'll get the memo.

[Haunted]

Seen on news this am, South Korea suffered cyberattack, all computers down for hours; NK is suspected. Today KJ-un is supervising a simulated attack on SK.

[guido tkp]

:umm: ..really, RG ?? Al Qaeda is not a country ??

go figure !!!

doesn't it lie somewhere between Bombastican and I'llblowyouppa ?!?!

you and fljoe are probably exactly on-the-nose as to what is really going on...but...then again...

nonetheless, it would be foolish to not take them, or any possible threat, seriously: bush & co did not take the al qaeda threat seriously and even though they 'are not a country' thousands died...thousands more suffered greatly: that is not insignificant...

the NK's probably will never pose a real threat...but there is no guarantee of that: our govt should always make like a boy scout and be prepared

the possibility exists that what Haunted alludes to could be true...imagine if they find a way to cripple some of our systems...there are many, many ways to create chaos...there are many, many ways to do damage...

the japanese were pretty smart, well educated people when they flew across a mighty big ocean to attack pearl harbor...the NK's attack their brothers to the south fairly regularly...the chinese taunt and threaten the japanese and the taiwanese nearly every day...

shoot...nobody anywhere actually acts sane all the time...

none of this may ever amount up to anything more than another crazy hill of beans...but the minute we get all chamberlinesque...we somehow, quite often, end up in the same bad spot, anyway...

[Lily Sawyer]

Kim Jong-un is making threats again... The guy is nuts.
Doesn't seem to realize, despite the budget cuts,
We can always find the funds to fight if we're attacked.
Now his ties to Russia and the Chinese may have cracked.

It makes countries nervous when a neighbor rocks the boat.
North Korea's neighbors have a U.N. Council vote.
They've agreed to sanctions since the Hermit Kingdom has
Proved its newest leader is a suicidal spaz.

I bet Putin's wishing Kim Jong-un would shut his mouth;
Stop with making threats against Koreans in the south.
Let the Chinese deal with him for now. They keep him fed;
Propped his dad and grandpa up and look where that has led.

Now they have a lunatic who's slipping off his leash.
Can't believe they didn't see this problem coming. Sheesh!
Not as if the family tree could give them cause for hopes;
If you're planting cabbage, you get cabbages... You dopes.

:glare:

Squeejie Smeejie, you're brilliant as usual. :love:

[Lily Sawyer]

OMG - you can't make this sh*t up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/27/north-korea-marine-landing-photoshop_n_2963348.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=674471,b=facebook

[Out of Order]

;-D

You can tell it is a fake...........

The NK's don't have that many landing craft.........:wink:.......................that stay afloat..................

[Lily Sawyer]

http://www.lechatnoirboutique.com/prodimages/Coffee%20Mug%20-%20Far%20Side%20Rocket%20Scientists.jpg

[guido tkp]

hi, flemming...not sure how to read your post...seems a bit vague or something...

but, for the record, the US, one of those superpowers, is not interfering w/NK: all this agressiveness is solely from the NK, solely a product of their imaginations...you might've missed that part

the US, much to the chagrine of many of its citizens, has, by and large, had a policy of near-appeasement w/NK for a very long time...generally, the NK's make a lot of noise...we give them alot of food...they go away until people are literally starving to death...and sooner or later, the cycle restarts

i'm sure we spy on them, but no more than we probably do with even some of our best of friends...and we all know some of our best friends spy on us as well: trust but verify, right ?

not sure why you would equate a superpower with a monster...or, for that matter, what the hell that even means...but there is no freedom in NK nor has there been since the war ended...and no superpower, not even china, their bestest and only friend, has had much influence over those internal policies.

quite frankly...everybody and their brother has, indeed, allowed NK to 'live freely' by whatever book of the damned the toadies who overlord the place have wanted to pontificate from lo these past 50-60 years...

so, all the freedoms lost and all the lives lost are all solely the product of the regime in power with no help from any monsters other than those in power in NK

'course...maybe you like evil dictatorships...in which case, i'm kinda preachin' to a closed gallery, huh ?

[guido tkp]

ooooohhhhh... gary larson :love2:

sigh...they just don't make 'em that good, anymore, huh, Tennesse ?? :wink2:

[Out of Order]

I miss The Far Side..................:saddd:

[unclelouie]

We can't afford another war. Our wallet is empty. I think it was empty during Vietnam too, but at least when we produced weaponry and death machines here at home, the economy benefitted. You can't benefit to much these days when most weapons are made overseas.

[guido tkp]

louie, louie...oh, oh...

actually...all the unbiased economic wonks have been saying all along we are not it all that much trouble...and haven't really been...even boehner had to come out a week or two ago and tell the truth...

we have an economic engine that needs to be tweaked, that is all..almost the entirety of our current debt problem would be solved by tax reform, on many different levels...not by cutting more spending...

we would have no problem taking on a real enemy if congress did it's job correctly

[unclelouie]

louie, louie...oh, oh...

actually...all the unbiased economic wonks have been saying all along we are not it all that much trouble...and haven't really been...even boehner had to come out a week or two ago and tell the truth...

we have an economic engine that needs to be tweaked, that is all..almost the entirety of our current debt problem would be solved by tax reform, on many different levels...not by cutting more spending...

we would have no problem taking on a real enemy if congress did it's job correctly

Even if what you say is true, and let's just assume it is (I am not one to pick fights :)

Much of our military involvement around the world over the past 50 years has had some pretty nasty uninteded consequences. Remember the "quagmire" in Iraq after "Mission Accomplished"? After the fall of Saddam, it was an absolute mess over there. Probably still is, but you don't hear much about Iraq anymore in mainstream news coverage. Saddam was our enemy, yes. But he was also once our friend. Why? Well, we needed him to keep on eye on Iran, another enemy back in the 80s (remember that photo of him shaking hands with Don Rumsfeld that circulated the email spam boxes of America back in 2004 or so..).

So why was Iran an enemy? Well, anyone remember the coup d'tetat of 1953? If not, Google is your friend..

And remember another group of "friends" we had in the 80s when we were in the Cold War... they were called The Taliban...

Now listen.. Im not dogging out America.. Im a proud American. I love America. And I want us to propser and have peace. But im just trying to say, military actions have uninteded consequences. Let's stop.

[guido tkp]

well...louie...never said i wanted a war...and all its baggage...so i'm not gonna go all hawkish 'n stuff

just said it is wrong to think we could not fiscally do it.

[unclelouie]

well...louie...never said i wanted a war...and all its baggage...so i'm not gonna go all hawkish 'n stuff

just said it is wrong to think we could not fiscally do it.

The national debt is currently..

$16,756,349,945,836.48

How would be able to fund another war, and remain solvent? Think of it this way. When we are taxed, that money doesn't go directly back to the government. It goes straight to the Treasury in order to pay interest on money borrowed from the Feds by the government. That's a mathematical quagmire and and of itself.

I consider myself a liberal in the classic sense (ie Chomsky, Nader, et al), so don't think I am going all anti Obama and Tea Party crazy here on you. I've been concered with the debt long since before the Iraq War started.

And remember.. there is no such thing as an "unbiased" economist.

[Walter Oobleck]

Figures never lie but liars always figure.

[guido tkp]

louie...you sound like a tea party liberal

pretty sure both chomsky and nader would just plonk down a hefty progresive tax ssystem and make sure their pet ideas were taken care of first...kinda like anyone else...

their ideas, while good at times, haven't caught on with any form of majority of americans...interestingly, they've both, through the years, offered a wide range of ideas...only to be met with distance and disdain

can't say that about the tea party: they caught on real quick with a sizable percentage of the voting populace

the market place of ideas is fully wide open, as far as i'm concerened...but i stand by what i said...all of it manageable, if done correctly, despite what that huge $$ you floated is at this second...it can all be fixed if we all have the willpower to do so...

'course...worrying about that is kinda silly, dontchathink...if the NK's do manage to launch an attack on us...we're in a costly war anyway, right ??

what'll happen then: uh, sorry...can't do nuhtin'...outta dineros !!

prolly not, sir !!

[unclelouie]

louie...you sound like a tea party liberal


I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around that one, friend.

The Tea Party has no issues with over-spending, unless a Democrat is the one doing the spending. The Tea Party seemed to have no qualms with President Bush and his trillion spent in Iraq, TARP (which was enacted by Bush in 08, before he left office), and hundreds of thousands in corporate welfare. Also the Tea Party seems to want to dismantle the Social Security and Medicare system. I am not for this at all. I would like to protect these programs for our seniors.

I usually find myself on the "anti" side, when it comes to most of our wars. Tea Party folks dont seemed to concered with war... well, unless President Obama is the one waging it.. they were probably the same people chanting "stay the course" under Bush.

Again, unlike the TP, I pro-choice, and also pro marriage equality.

So Im not sure where you are getting that Tea Party label.

[guido tkp]

could be your similar obsession w/ the debt and taxation...but, since it was kinda tongue-in-cheek :wink2: it really doesn't matter

no worries, lou...anybody who is so 'pro' freedom is fine by me...after all, freedom is what it all should be about in the USA, right ?? :y:

[Lily Sawyer]

Did either of you guys see the PBS Newshour tonight? One guy from State/SAIS (Johns Hopkins) and one guy from the Fletcher School at Tufts were on arguing about whether this is all a lead-up to another war with Korea. One was Korean-American and said Kim Jong Un's posturing and threats are all very sane and orderly, that this is a way for North Korea to posture more and see if they can get away with being indulged by another American president. The other guy said this is a real threat but that he won't be able to inflict real harm on the U.S., only its military bases in South Korea and Japan.

I think he and Achmadinejad attended the same school, the Saddam Hussein Academy for Certifiables. And I think that while North Korea won't be able to take out Austin, TX, as was mentioned in the broadcast, that China will intervene and tell Un to eff off and grow up.

[MrsSmeej]

Even if what you say is true, and let's just assume it is (I am not one to pick fights :)

Much of our military involvement around the world over the past 50 years has had some pretty nasty uninteded consequences. Remember the "quagmire" in Iraq after "Mission Accomplished"? After the fall of Saddam, it was an absolute mess over there. Probably still is, but you don't hear much about Iraq anymore in mainstream news coverage. Saddam was our enemy, yes. But he was also once our friend. Why? Well, we needed him to keep on eye on Iran, another enemy back in the 80s (remember that photo of him shaking hands with Don Rumsfeld that circulated the email spam boxes of America back in 2004 or so..).

So why was Iran an enemy? Well, anyone remember the coup d'tetat of 1953? If not, Google is your friend..

And remember another group of "friends" we had in the 80s when we were in the Cold War... they were called The Taliban...

Now listen.. Im not dogging out America.. Im a proud American. I love America. And I want us to propser and have peace. But im just trying to say, military actions have uninteded consequences. Let's stop.

:eek2:

Hear that tin-pot clanking sound? That's saber rattling.
It has grown so loud I think it's woken up Beijing.
Causing some alarm in South Korea and - what for?
Kim Jong-un's declared his country's in a state of war.

Hard to tell how serious the North Koreans are,
But I think they may have pushed the "crazy talk" too far.
South Korea's President has said her country will
Go to war if they're attacked... A thought that doesn't thrill

China or the Russians - not to mention the U.S.
Is Kim Jong-un listening? That's anybody's guess.
So far it's been only words - this time - no overt acts,
And there are some hopeful signs he's finally facing facts:

People in his country are severely under-fed.
He'd be out of luck with half his population dead.
U.S. has positioned ships and bombers off his coast;
Have to say that I agree with Uncle Louie's post.

[unclelouie]

Yep, I believe what's going to happen to N. Korea is the same thing that happened to the USSR in the late 80s. The USSR was so focused on trying to become a world superpower that they ended up not being able to even feed their own people, and take care of their own basic needs at home. A truly Communist regime, such as N. Korea, simply does not have the level of productivity it would require in order to both maintain its people, and to become a legitimate world threat (at least in the long-term), IMO.

And it is true. The US simply doesnt have the power to continue borrowing as we have in the past, esp. now with the world turning away from the dollar as its reserve currency. We've borrowed and over-spent for too long now, and the breaking point is here. What good did the trillion in Iraq do? What good will a war with Iran or N Korea do? Do these war hawks in the general population ever take a look back at history before they slap a magnet on their pick-up and start blasting Lee Greenwood songs on their radios?

[dsurrett]

Nuke'em till they glow and bomb'em in the dark.
Just kidding.
Sort of.
If military action needs to be taken, hopefully another country will get ticked-off at them enough to take care of things, or the regime will collapse on itself. I'm conservative politically, but we don't need to get in another war unless there is a direct threat to the US. With the way our military has been cut back, we simply can't play the 'heavy' all the time. We've too often taken the brunt of criticism for doing other countries' dirty work for them.

[Out of Order]

The NK has shut down entry into the Industrial Zone - a move that could further hurt their own people.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/03/us-korea-north-idUSBRE93002620130403

[Haunted]

I just read elsewhere this am that China is moving some of its military to the NK border!!

Also heard that -un is trying to muscle SK's new president, Ms. Park.

'Course the UN's (with China's aye vote) sanctions are the reason for all this posturing.

There will be an international uproar against NK if any of Seoul's shopping areas such as Etewon (sp) or Osan are disturbed!!:eek2:

[unclelouie]

Nuke'em till they glow and bomb'em in the dark.
Just kidding.
Sort of.
If military action needs to be taken, hopefully another country will get ticked-off at them enough to take care of things, or the regime will collapse on itself. I'm conservative politically, but we don't need to get in another war unless there is a direct threat to the US. With the way our military has been cut back, we simply can't play the 'heavy' all the time. We've too often taken the brunt of criticism for doing other countries' dirty work for them.

Ok, dude.. honestly... besides Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Cuba, Panama, Nicaragua, Bosnia, Kosovo, Serbia, Somolia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Pakistan, and Yemen, name me one single country we have meddled in the affairs of....

[unclelouie]

But here's the thing to keep in mind... politicians are put into power by people with money and influence... people with money and influence have a vested financial interest in war profits.... look no furhter than that to figure out why we go to war 95% of the time..

[fljoe0]

Ok, dude.. honestly... besides Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Cuba, Panama, Nicaragua, Bosnia, Kosovo, Serbia, Somolia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Pakistan, and Yemen, name me one single country we have meddled in the affairs of....

Chile

[Robert Gray]

But here's the thing to keep in mind... politicians are put into power by people with money and influence... people with money and influence have a vested financial interest in war profits.... look no furhter than that to figure out why we go to war 95% of the time..

I'm going to say this with at much tact as I can manage. Get over it. Yes, the United States (like every other Nation) meddles in the politics of other countries. Yes, the United States has, at times, engaged in wars whose sole purpose was to move money around from the public coffers to war profiteers. This too is the same of most nations, super powers in particular. No, the United States doesn't always do this. Sometimes her meddling and military intervention is exactly as advertised. Sometimes it is on the side of the angels. All that is academic, however, as we are talking about North Korea.

The United States isn't meddling in the affairs of North Korea for any other reason than South Korea, China, and Japan are meddling. Nobody wants to go to war with them. There is no profit in it. The only way the United States will be at war with North Korea is if/when she attacks us or South Korea. At that time, China, the United States, and South Korea will kick the ever living crap out of that country. Japan will operate in a support role. That's it. That is all there is to it. China isn't mobilizing troops on the border of North Korea to fight us. They know we have no intention of landing troops there. They know we would just blow the country off the map. They aren't mobilizing troops to fight the South Koreans with whom they have a far more stable (and profitable) relationship with. Do you see where I'm going with this?

This isn't about the United States being greedy meanies here. Nobody cared about North Korea at all, until North Korea decided to MAKE us care. Do not compare apples and oranges.

[guido tkp]

kudos, RG...

louie...???? :lfacepalm:

really ???? :facepalm: :facepalm:

as lil' chuckie b used to intone...oh good grief

[Lily Sawyer]

Ok, dude.. honestly... besides Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Cuba, Panama, Nicaragua, Bosnia, Kosovo, Serbia, Somolia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Pakistan, and Yemen, name me one single country we have meddled in the affairs of....

Mexico, Colombia, Japan, and Germany. Just for starters.

[Out of Order]

Some pics from NK.........

http://storify.com/theglobeandmail/north-korea-via-instagram?utm_source=embed_header

[unclelouie]

@RG, there is no profit in a war with N Korea? Really, now? Some military contractor isn't going to make money over fist if we go to war? Military contractors are in the business of everything from drones, bombs, and tanks to toliet seats, combat boots, and food service. There is always money to be made when we go to war. And the taxpayer is always on the line. I mean, honestly, how do military contactors make money if we dont go to war? They have a vested, financial interest in armed conflict. And they have lobbyists too.

Anyhow, so you think N Korea may be a legit threat? Maybe. But then again, plenty of people thought Saddam Hussein was an iminent threat too, sitting on piles of WMDs that were oddly never found, and 10 years later, still haven't. Some thought there was a risk of evil communism spreading all the way from some jungle sh**hole called Vietnam all the way to America, so we do what? Engage in a 13 year conflict with them... 60,000 or so American boys dead.. and for what? Do you know how much bank the war hawks made during that conflict? So I apologize if I am leary of the drums of war..... I am a student of history. I like to believe if we learn from it, we may not be forced to repeat it.

[unclelouie]

Also, it's not really my fault for being leary of the war drums either... it's like the boy who cried wolf.

[fljoe0]

Also, it's not really my fault for being leary of the war drums either... it's like the boy who cried wolf.

I'm always leery of stuff like this. Is it a coincidence that all this has started with military budget cuts looming?

[Sepia and Dust]

I'm always leery of stuff like this. Is it a coincidence that all this has started with military budget cuts looming?

This started long before the sequestration hype began.

[unclelouie]

This started long before the sequestration hype began.

True. Remember, N Korea was part of W's "Axis of Evil". Im assuming had he had time, N Korea would have been next on the list after Iraq.

[fljoe0]

This started long before the sequestration hype began.

This is true, but I'm just saying that whenever budget cuts are mentioned, it seems that things escalate rapidly.

[Walter Oobleck]

I wonder why now from North Korea? Does it have anything to do w/China's recent trade agreements w/others? South Korea & Japan only two of many. The movement away from the dollar as the world's reserve currency? How are things in China? Have the Chinese told us, "you have a pretty green hat." If the North does do something, I doubt it will be based solely on their desire to acquire more land to bury their dead.

[Robert Gray]

@RG, there is no profit in a war with N Korea? Really, now? Some military contractor isn't going to make money over fist if we go to war? Military contractors are in the business of everything from drones, bombs, and tanks to toliet seats, combat boots, and food service. There is always money to be made when we go to war. And the taxpayer is always on the line. I mean, honestly, how do military contactors make money if we dont go to war? They have a vested, financial interest in armed conflict. And they have lobbyists too.

No. There is no profit in it. Wars for profit over the last forty years target small nations which don't really offer a legitimate threat, don't have super power allies, and aren't a problem for us to deploy troops into for extended periods of time (and thus stretch the budget). War profiteering, like any kind of business model only works in so far as the profits outstrip the overall costs. You still reside in the imaginary world wherein a secret cabal of companies control the country and shed American blood for money without a care in the world. If this world ever really existed, it is far more complex now. Economies are mingled, debt crosses borders, companies are at loggerheads because expansion of one type of munition cuts into that of someone else (i.e. not all our stuff comes from a small handful of companies anymore). There simply isn't any sustained profit in this kind of war, which is why we don't fight them.


Anyhow, so you think N Korea may be a legit threat? Maybe.

Are they a legitimate military threat to the United States? No. Are they a legitimate military threat to our allies? Yes. Would they be an easy fight on the ground? No. Against North Korea we would not be able to do what we did in Iraq (hence the no profit versus cost ratio). Not only would we have a nightmare on the ground against North Korea, it would only escalate and draw in people we don't want to fight. In other words, we can blow the hell out of them from the air but we can't really fight them on the ground without an obscene cost to us.


But then again, plenty of people thought Saddam Hussein was an iminent threat too, sitting on piles of WMDs that were oddly never found, and 10 years later, still haven't.

I was not one of them. I stated from the start there were no WMD and that Iraq was foolish. The fact that the government was mislead then doesn't mean automatically that is mislead now. That is a fallacy. They are apples and oranges.


Some thought there was a risk of evil communism spreading all the way from some jungle sh**hole called Vietnam all the way to America, so we do what? Engage in a 13 year conflict with them... 60,000 or so American boys dead.. and for what? Do you know how much bank the war hawks made during that conflict? So I apologize if I am leary of the drums of war..... I am a student of history. I like to believe if we learn from it, we may not be forced to repeat it.

You are not a student of history. You are a student of emotion. You have very strong views which color and temper everything you see, causing it to focus through a narrow lens. You assume that every war is a criminal enterprise run by evil people seeking profit. That is as (if you will forgive me) foolish as some people assuming every war entered into by the United States is a just cause. The truth is never black and white.

[unclelouie]

@RG, no emotion on here... my belief that war is for profit has some pretty decent info to back it up.


The Iraq War:
Halliburton-
According to MSN Money (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/WhosProfitingFromTheIraqWar.aspx), Halliburton’s KBR, Inc. division bilked government agencies to the tune of $17.2 billion in Iraq war-related revenue from 2003-2006 alone. This is estimated to comprise a whopping one-fifth of KBR’s total revenue for the 2006 fiscal year.

Washington Group:
The Washington Group International (http://www.wgint.com/projects/defense/) has parlayed its expertise the repair, restore, and maintenance of high-output oil fields into $931 million in Iraq-related revenue from 2003-2006. The publicly traded 25,000 employee company’s other specialties include the building and maintenance of schools, military bases, and municipal utilities, such as watering systems.

(http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-most-vicious-iraq-war-profiteers/)

===============
These are just a couple recent examples.... and if you wanna adjust for inflation, do some research on Vietnam War profits as well. Both NAM and Iraq were long-term ground wars.

[unclelouie]

Also, RG, using words like "cabal" sort of sounds like you are painting me as a looney conspiracy theorist. The truth is there is no "cabal". Just a system where money talks... BS walks..... Sort of like the way its been since the dawn of civilization. It's just now... the system is more advanced, and tecnology and weaponry has come along further. I mean, I am sure there were people back in the day making profits on selling sling shots and shield back in BC times.

[Robert Gray]

Also, RG, using words like "cabal" sort of sounds like you are painting me as a looney conspiracy theorist. The truth is there is no "cabal". Just a system where money talks... BS walks..... Sort of like the way its been since the dawn of civilization. It's just now... the system is more advanced, and tecnology and weaponry has come along further. I mean, I am sure there were people back in the day making profits on selling sling shots and shield back in BC times.

I don't have to paint you as anything. You are doing a perfectly fine job defining yourself without my help. What you have yet to demonstrate, to sustain your arguments, is that the United States has in any way initiated this situation. That is required for your theory to hold up. You must show that the United States (or people manipulating it) are actively creating the situation in North Korea rather than this situation originating there.

History, which you profess to be a student of, does not support your supposition. Modern history demonstrates that the United States as no interest whatsoever in getting entangled with North Korea. We have paid them off, so to speak, no less than six times in the last thirty years. There a cycle in which North Korea starts to rattle the saber, most often at times when the United States is otherwise engaged or facing financial issues of its own, a tense bit of international debate and threat, followed by us paying them off. They are the boy who cried wolf. Each time they have employed this trick it has become less successful. In short, if we wanted to go to war with North Korea we have had ample opportunity under multiple Administrations (both Democrat and Republican). Why hasn't it happened? :) If the United States is just spoiling to feed the military industrial complex, why does it keep paying to avoid this conflict?

[guido tkp]

well...this all really started once they started showing pictures of da un's hottie wife...sounds more like a shakespearian conspiracy than a 21st century military-industrial complex one to me

cute chick...dennis rodman...little man making big noises to shows whos in charge...

while halliburton/iraq does give louie some wiggle room for discussion...those are weak legs to stand on for this one (not to mention they are tired, old-style conspiracy rants that needn't be pulled out for every occasion: RG is right...not every answer is so B&W)

in the previous instance, the whole shebang was orchestrated by bush&co., but they also had paul wolfwhatisname pushing his grander agenda of remaking the entire socio-economic-political landscape of the region...and bushie was just as much about all that as the MIC and the instant cha-ching...the fact that alot of his cronies (including our trigger-fingered VP) would make bank off it was just gravy for them, right ??

it's the wife...i'm tellin' ya

[Walter Oobleck]

So...is this new twist of seeing images from North Korea a smart move on the part of whomever? Sympathy for the devil? Cue the Stones? Someone somewhere here posted a link to some images...and apparently Dennis' trip was set-up w/the idea of imagery from the North? As orchestrated as that society is, I wonder how staged the images are/are not? Empty streets...a hollow feeling...but then too, there's those images from the schools.

[unclelouie]

@RG, we have an extensive history of war profiteering in every war since WW1.... why all of a sudden should I think that N Korea is different than other wars/conflicts we've had world-wide since the early 20th century?

Why all of a sudden should we think this situation is going to be any different than the previous ones? That's really all Im asking here. Call me a kook, but im a little leery of the drums of war.

[exzel]

Since North Korea is such an isolationist county, much thought on what is going on over there is conjecture. Personally, I think the situation is quite serious. Under Kim Jung-Il’s regime (his father), this kind of stuff was used to gain leverage and to get concessions and deals from the west. But many of the reports I’ve read indicate that Kim Jung-Un, because of his youth and inexperience, is steadily losing control of the Korean People’s Army, and may feel the need to attack South Korea to maintain control. And I don’t think he cares about his people. Many are starving and reports have been coming out of cannibalism going on. He probably would be happy if half the population perished through war. But will the KPA follow his orders is the real question? And I don’t think we can rely on China to bring reason to the situation, as I think they are also afraid of his leadership stability.

[unclelouie]

But you all will remember who originally warned us of war profiteering? President Eisenhower (was he a conspiracy loon?).

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist."

[Robert Gray]

@RG, we have an extensive history of war profiteering in every war since WW1.... why all of a sudden should I think that N Korea is different than other wars/conflicts we've had world-wide since the early 20th century?

This is very tiresome. The etiquette of debate is simple. If you put forth a supposition, it is up to you to support it directly without fallacies. If asked a question, you are supposed to answer it. The same is true of the person you are debating with. Your statement above isn't evidence. It is a the very definition of fallacy, touching base on three major ones. We are talking about North Korea and the current situation. If things are as clear cut and black and white as you indicate, you should be able to support your argument with some kind of evidence ACTUALLY having to do with North Korea. Please answer the earlier question, and/or demonstrate to us how the United States is creating the situation in hopes of creating a war to profit from. Your arguments are only valid if you can demonstrate the United States is instigating the situation, i.e. purposely stirring the pot.


Why all of a sudden should we think this situation is going to be any different than the previous ones? That's really all Im asking here. Call me a kook, but im a little leery of the drums of war.

Nobody has called you a kook. Nobody has defined you, except yourself. Your failure to directly support your arguments or answer questions related to them with evidence rather than innuendo does not cast you in a favorable light. This appears to be your argument:

"People did bad things in the past so we must assume they are doing bad things now."

[Sepia and Dust]

The etiquette of debate is simple. If you put forth a supposition, it is up to you to support it directly without fallacies. If asked a question, you are supposed to answer it. The same is true of the person you are debating with. Your statement above isn't evidence. It is a the very definition of fallacy, touching base on three major ones.

Pretty sure this isn't a formal debate. It's a discussion.

[Robert Gray]

Pretty sure this isn't a formal debate. It's a discussion.

Fair enough but what he is doing is still impolite.

[unclelouie]

Well, I have no evidence that the current situation is all about profiteering. I am simply going on our past track record, and am leery when we we "cry wolf", especially after the whole WMDs fiasco (rather, lack of WMDs fiasco). Ok, so Ill keep an open mind, and an open ear.... I'd rather just not rush into another war if it's not necessary.

However, oftentimes political (and religious) debate can leads to things getting heated, people getting offended, and things being said that people dont mean or take the wrong way. Im gonna cool down a bit, because Id rather stay on friendly terms with everyone here, bc I come here for SK discussion (as we all do) and to make new friends who love SK as well. And afterall, if I feel like riling myself up, Ill just head over to Huff Post or Red State or somewhere :)

[Walter Oobleck]

What concerns me is what our nation will do when the dollar shows sharper declines than it has already shown. There are already calls to replace the dollar as the currency used by the world and the dollar has been replaced in some cases. The British sterling was all the rage once upon a time. With us borrowing .46-cents on the dollar, with the growing obstacle of debt, what recourse is open to those we elect to govern us? And then there's this talk of profit. How has our nation reacted in the past to saber rattling from North Korea? Assuming other nations are keen to our capabilities...and the belief, merited or not, that we are not capable of protecting our interests or those of others, what actions would they take?

[Robert Gray]

Well, I have no evidence that the current situation is all about profiteering. I am simply going on our past track record, and am leery when we we "cry wolf", especially after the whole WMDs fiasco (rather, lack of WMDs fiasco). Ok, so Ill keep an open mind, and an open ear.... I'd rather just not rush into another war if it's not necessary.

Then you should be thrilled because we aren't the ones crying wolf. We clearly don't want to rush into another war either. We have pretty much stated that we will only react if they attack us. This is a 100% turnabout from the past acceptance of preemptive attacks. The current Administration, like myself, largely believes that simply being prepared for attack is prudent but that ignoring further provocation is the best course of action.


However, oftentimes political (and religious) debate can leads to things getting heated, people getting offended, and things being said that people dont mean or take the wrong way. Im gonna cool down a bit, because Id rather stay on friendly terms with everyone here, bc I come here for SK discussion (as we all do) and to make new friends who love SK as well. And afterall, if I feel like riling myself up, Ill just head over to Huff Post or Red State or somewhere :)

With me things will never get heated, frosty perhaps but never heated. I like a good discussion/debate (I don't really distinguish between the two) but for us to have that discussion there has to be some meat and potatoes to it. Without actual evidence to back up our statements, we don't really have much to discuss. :) Staying on topic, North Korea has been threatening us with Nuclear attack. When was the last time you heard of any country do that wherein we calmly turned the other cheek? You and I actually agree on many things. I just don't think every case is the same. Once bitten has made you twice shy does not always apply in international politics.

[unclelouie]

It's all good RG. I think Ill stick to more light hearted subject matter for the time being.... like the Dark Tower and Jack Torrance:)

[Robert Gray]

It's all good RG. I think Ill stick to more light hearted subject matter for the time being.... like the Dark Tower and Jack Torrance:)

Both far more appealing subjects... I agree. I'll see you over there.

[Out of Order]

NK vs. SK.....every incident mapped..........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2010/nov/23/korea-incidents-map

[PatInTheHat]

Kind of a primer from a few years back...
http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/...10th/36173.PDF

Concerning Korea, ya might find this wee nugget interesting...
" A U.S. renegotiation board, a separate entity created the Korean
War (?) to guard against profiteering by defense contractors—in 1978,
it returned $34.4 million in profits it had found to be unwarranted,
while spending only $6.2 million. Its demise came in 1976 after
Congress refused to extend the budget. "

"War Is A Racket": Smedley Butler...he's definitely worth the read, it's the, 'the more things change, the more they stay the same', kinda thang:y:.
War profiteers should be lashed, tarred & feathered, shot, then hung, and only then their heads elegantly piked throughout the Capital to rot, and I most truly believe that.
So um, anybody know what surprises your portfolio may hold, well you know, if ya still have one, and, like, ya might just give a one single good goddamn:eyebrow:?

[Terry B]

I think President I'mADemiGogue doesn't pay attention to much in world news. He was certainly asleep when the Holocaust was covered in history class, because he insists it never happened and that it was all fabricated. North Korea is but a blip on his radar - they eat pork, and besides, I don't think he's much of a fan of kimchee.

Oh he's watching. He's more interested in America's response. If we send in troops or nuke em' as a lot of us would love to see, it would give Iran the excuse they've been waiting for to attack Israel and all hell will break out. Oh he's watching.

[Terry B]

Saw this on Facebook this morning. Couldn't resist...

17354

[unclelouie]

Ok, I admit it... posting in political forums is like heroin sometimes... so Im back!

Seriously though, why are we always so worried about Israel? No, before any loses their mind, it's got nothing to do with "hating Jews" or anything mularky of that nature. But I think we should help move Israel to Puerto Rico, or Idaho or somewhere safer. They seem to be constantly stirring up the hornet's nest over there in the Middle East. And I dunno if we do ourself any favors supporting them militarily. I mean, the Middle East has a long history of war, intolerance, and violence... so whose bright idea was it to stick Israel over there in the midst of it?

[exzel]

Ok, I admit it... posting in political forums is like heroin sometimes... so Im back!

I mean, the Middle East has a long history of war, intolerance, and violence... so whose bright idea was it to stick Israel over there in the midst of it?

God's? :wink:

[fljoe0]

Ok, I admit it... posting in political forums is like heroin sometimes... so Im back!

Seriously though, why are we always so worried about Israel? No, before any loses their mind, it's got nothing to do with "hating Jews" or anything mularky of that nature. But I think we should help move Israel to Puerto Rico, or Idaho or somewhere safer. They seem to be constantly stirring up the hornet's nest over there in the Middle East. And I dunno if we do ourself any favors supporting them militarily. I mean, the Middle East has a long history of war, intolerance, and violence... so whose bright idea was it to stick Israel over there in the midst of it?

I removed this - poor attempt at a joke - sorry

[unclelouie]

God's? :wink:

Oh, man I thought it was David Ben-Gurion's idea!

[Terry B]

Ok, I admit it... posting in political forums is like heroin sometimes... so Im back!

Seriously though, why are we always so worried about Israel? No, before any loses their mind, it's got nothing to do with "hating Jews" or anything mularky of that nature. But I think we should help move Israel to Puerto Rico, or Idaho or somewhere safer. They seem to be constantly stirring up the hornet's nest over there in the Middle East. And I dunno if we do ourself any favors supporting them militarily. I mean, the Middle East has a long history of war, intolerance, and violence... so whose bright idea was it to stick Israel over there in the midst of it?

Maybe time for an intervention unclelouie? :cant::whoa:

[Chris1974100]

They provoked Korea thats what USA are doing to its enemy nation, who the hell are the USA to do that?

[FlakeNoir]

I'm going to ask members ahead of time to remember to respond to the 'words spoken' and to not attack the speaker. (Thank you :smile2: )

[guido tkp]

what, exactly, did the hellacious US of A do to provoke the peacable NK's, dear friend chris1974 ??

[Robert Gray]

They provoked Korea thats what USA are doing to its enemy nation, who the hell are the USA to do that?

I echo the sentiments of others here. What exactly do you mean by "provoke?" More importantly, what exactly is it that the U.S.A. doing that South Korea, Japan, Russia, and even China are not? I'm going to provide you a very brief summary of the ACTUAL situation. Every country I listed above (and many others actually) have voted in the United Nations to sanction North Korea's Nuclear Weapons program. The agreement that North Korea should not be allowed to possess such weapons is near universal with only a couple of other States who North Korea has shared the technology with disagreeing. Those nations are also under sanctions by the United Nations. I want to point out how rare it is for China, Russia, and the United States to agree on anything. Roll that around in your head.

The only thing the United States has done to provoke North Korea is not pay them this cycle's ransom/tribute. In other words, every so many years, North Korea starts to threaten war, death and destruction unless they are given an easement on sanctions, massive aid, and get to save some face. In exchange for this, they usually agree to suspend their Nuclear Weapons program and stop saying they will destroy South Korea, Japan, and the United States. Your argument holds no water because saying the United States is "provoking" North Korea is like saying someone was asking to be mugged. If only they had given the mugger more money or handed the wallet over faster, they wouldn't have gotten shot.

[Todash]

I'm going to ask members ahead of time to remember to respond to the 'words spoken' and to not attack the speaker. (Thank you :smile2: )
You know, you really are no fun at all.

KIDDING. Totally kidding! (You knew that, right?)

[Lily Sawyer]

Sticks and stones may break our bones but North Korean posturing never will.

Kim Jong Un is bluffing. I don't believe for one second that they have enough missiles to destroy Seoul, or that they could secretly receive enough to cream Japan (or Guam) without our intelligence finding out about it first.

[exzel]

Personally, I don't think North Korea is bluffing. Reports of internal political strife within the country is much more troubling than the rhetoric against South Korea, Japan or the US.

And the most concerning of all:
http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-tipped-hand-084500657--politics.html

[Haunted]

Personally, I don't think North Korea is bluffing. Reports of internal political strife within the country is much more troubling than the rhetoric against South Korea, Japan or the US.

And the most concerning of all:
http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-tipped-hand-084500657--politics.html

Thanks for this article; did not know this intelligence. Oh my, must pray harder.

[hairyfairy]

I`m not so sure about NK`s sabre rattling being a bluff, because their leader is obviously nuts, & might just think that he can rule the world!

[exzel]

Oh, man I thought it was David Ben-Gurion's idea!

You should have been more specific then… BC or AD (are we still allowed to use those terms?), History or Theology, etc. :smile:

[Robert Gray]

I happen to believe, based on past history and what appears to be pretty reliable intelligence, that they are indeed bluffing. I think they are simply applying the tactics that have paid off for them in the past. However, I'm willing to play Devil's Advocate. Let's consider both options and see if it means we (as the United States) should act any differently:

1. They are bluffing. If this is the case the current strategy is the correct one. There is no reason to reward them for threats and bullying.
2. They are honest. If this is the case, we are still employing the correct strategy, i.e. not rewarding them for terrorist threats, bullying, while preparing our forces to deal with them (along with our allies) if/when it happens.

In the end, as horrific as it may sound, our reaction should be the same. The only other option is to capitulate again and again. Past experience has shown us that North Korea does not honor its side of the bargain and continues right on track with the Nuclear Program. In short, we would be paying them tribute/ransom to "not" threaten us or our allies. The ultimate result of this appeasement priority is having them achieve their weapons goals and attack anyway (based on history). Thus, the issue is largely moot. Are there people here that would actually like to keep paying them off?

[guido tkp]

no...i was serious about the drone thing, all those posts ago...if they make the wrong moves, we respond quickly

our missiles can take care of the big things...our drones can take care of the small things...we have no need to go to war...just subdue them...

if we have the ability to wage a war (as bill maher so infamously got in trouble with ABC over, all those years ago) from a desktop, without sending in the troops...then it's time to call thier bluff...give 'em nothing...but prepared to show them that that day is done

i'm no hawk, but maybe a new shock and awe will humble them quickly...

[FlakeNoir]

You know, you really are no fun at all.

KIDDING. Totally kidding! (You knew that, right?)

:tongue:

[unclelouie]

Wait.. I just forgot... didn't Dennis Rodman just go over to N Korea for some "basketball diplomacy"? I can't believe Rodman was unable to bring world peace.

[Walter Oobleck]

Was curious...so I looked, "This Date in History". Yesterday was the birthday of one of those tyrants from the North. Likely? Who knows at this point...but that map that someone posted either here or elsewhere to-do w/infiltrations of the South by agents of the North is pocked w/events. Thought I read Rodman is going back...maybe bring Cyndi..."little tyrants just wanna be luv-uved!" Send Dennis back w/a bunch of cards.

[Robert Gray]

Another funny proclamation came from North Korea. Apparently they are willing to "talk" with us if and only if the United States eases the sanctions, agrees to no more joint exercises with South Korea, and apologizes to them. :) As I said before, this is the same old song and dance from them. In short, this is their leader's way of saying, "give me something to save face with, i.e. some kind of easement on sanctions and I will go away."

[guido tkp]

time to call his bluff...tell him to take a flying leap...in, of course, fairly diplomatic terms...

then...do a joint exercise with the SK's

hey, sou' koreans...doobie a good fellow and pass the peace pipe

b-b-burritos all around !!!