It's a cheap device to demonise mental health sufferers in 11/22/63

[Unregistered]

First before jumping on my back I enjoyed this book, it is obvious Mr King is an excellent writer. However...

Although there is some explanation for characters' mental health problems in this book, they are at the very most extreme end of the spectrum, in the same way that there can be *******s in law and there can be ******* writers etc.

It's drama but the layman reader would want to avoid mental health sufferers reading this book. Being a mental health sufferer is tough so it would be helpful if he cast them in a different light some place in his media following this book- to balance things up.

I have seen this before liberal writers using the cheap device of the ****ed up mental health sufferer who deserves to die

[Moderator]

That's not the message he was profferring.

[bobledrew]

I'm a mental health "sufferer" (btw, many would find that descriptor offensive (http://www.stephenking.com/forums/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.referen ce.com%2Fbrowse%2Fsuffer) -- "It is better to avoid using the words suffer and sufferer in relation to chronic illness or disability. They may be considered demeaning and disempowering. Suitable alternative are have ,experience , be diagnosed with" and I didn't find anything offensive in how SK dealt with mental health and illness in the book.

Perhaps if you'd like to engage further in the discussion you could register and discuss exactly what you thought was problematic in the book.

[J.T. Adams]

Maybe it's just my memory (the horrid thing it likes to sometime's be), but I have no idea what the 'guest' is even talking about on this one. Perhaps that's because I found nothing to take personal offense to in this novel?

IDK

[CarrieJo]

He's not saying all mental health sufferers deserve to die. Just that particular one.


I'm assuming we're talking about Sadie's ex-husband. It's been a little while and I blew through that book because I was so excited.

[fushingfeef]

hubba-whaaaa?

[PatInTheHat]

A mucho most perfect topic to bring up in therapy.

[PrisonerNumber6]

I think you took the words right out of my mouth, Fush.

[Bryan James]

I'm nuts. King doesn't offend me in any spectrum that shines here into Nutsoville.

Just hope he's finally done away with the damned arc-sodiums.

I'm not sure that your pose itself has any meat...or any tasty meat, so I'm just trying to give the thread something worthwhile.

Maybe clarify the original post...unless you are also nuts and cannot, and therefore the conclusion comes before the horse, neigh?

[Bryan James]

I'm a mental health "sufferer"...

**** that. I be a mental health "surfer."

I hang eleven.

[Manxkitti]

Myself, I have mental health issues, (bipolar disorder, anxiety, agoraphobia). I don't think King demonizes people with mental health issues at all. Just my humble opinion. Tho I don't normally tell people about it because the look on their face when I tell them. Like I'm going to "go nuts" or something. Because in general, people who have mental health issues tend to have some discrimination. Just IMHO.

[Shasta]

Maybe it's just my memory (the horrid thing it likes to sometime's be), but I have no idea what the 'guest' is even talking about on this one. Perhaps that's because I found nothing to take personal offense to in this novel?

IDK

I DON'T EITHER!!!

And I don't like this "unregistered" thing.

[GNTLGNT]

..."Flame on!"....

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs21/f/2007/247/6/f/Human_Torch_by_lordhelikaon.jpg...once again, opinion posted before knowing the depth & breadth of the author's work...and how he has ALWAYS treated all subjects with attention to detail and compassion...also, Mr/Ms OP....the "disabled" have played key and heroic roles in more than one of his works...best not cry before you're actually hurt...

[Unregistered]

Talking about specific crazy people who deserve to die, it's a fine line between this and generalising about crazy people. mad doesn't have to mean bad

Most people are ignorant about an issue that is as serious as Civil Rights

[PrisonerNumber6]

Well, if by the phrases mental illness or mental health or mental disorder, if you're talking about things like OCD (which I've had since age 5 I think, and yes i have reached the hand washing stage) then, well, I don't know what to say, except maybe join the club. I believe I remember an interview somewhere where Mr. K said he has a mild form of OCD. I'm willing to bet it's a mental version of tourette's syndrome, and I'm further willing to believe both on brought on by stress, a subject I side with Mr. K on in saying that it's one thing many readers of horror fiction have in common. I even believe Mr. K has used his own fiction to chronicle some of his own mental struggles and failings.

If such things as tourette's, OCD, Bipolar and Generalized Anxiety Disorder or GAD's syndrome for short (and here I'll admit I'm convinced Mr. K suffers from that last one). If any of these qualify as mental illness, if they in fact qualify as different forms of clinical neurosis ( I'm convinced they are) well then handling those issues is I guess a matter of helping you help yourself. Believe it or not, my own OCD used to bad, way bad, yet incredibly enough I seem to have gotten a handle on it with time. If neurosis as here defined is a social problem then I'll leave you with this thought from that late great eminent sage and Beatle.

Since our problems have been our own creation, they also can be overcome.
- George Harrision.

Be seeing you.

[bryantburnette]

Don't feed the trolls, people.

[PatInTheHat]

Don't feed the trolls, people.

:eek2:
Then whatever shall I do with this huge stockpile of expired sugar free, lactose intolerant, Ex-lax infused pot brownies:eyebrow:?????

[Doc Wilson]

You are silly to be offended, but I must say the post got me thinking. *Are* there any examples from the King canon where the good guy is the crazy one? That would be kind of interesting...

[Moderator]

You are silly to be offended, but I must say the post got me thinking. *Are* there any examples from the King canon where the good guy is the crazy one? That would be kind of interesting...

Not crazy but with mental health challenges, Tom Cullen and Duddits as good guys come immediately to mind.

[Doc Wilson]

Not crazy but with mental health challenges, Tom Cullen and Duddits as good guys come immediately to mind.

Yep, and Susanna/Odetta surely qualifies. Roland has to battle some inner demons as well, come to think of it.

[Shasta]

Talking about specific crazy people who deserve to die, it's a fine line between this and generalising about crazy people. mad doesn't have to mean bad

Most people are ignorant about an issue that is as serious as Civil Rights

There are lots of people who deserve to die. Not just crazy people.....

[champ1966]

Not crazy but with mental health challenges, Tom Cullen and Duddits as good guys come immediately to mind.

And Sheemie Ruiz

[champ1966]

First before jumping on my back I enjoyed this book, it is obvious Mr King is an excellent writer. However...

Although there is some explanation for characters' mental health problems in this book, they are at the very most extreme end of the spectrum, in the same way that there can be *******s in law and there can be ******* writers etc.

It's drama but the layman reader would want to avoid mental health sufferers reading this book. Being a mental health sufferer is tough so it would be helpful if he cast them in a different light some place in his media following this book- to balance things up.

I have seen this before liberal writers using the cheap device of the ****ed up mental health sufferer who deserves to die

There's an Oxford Don I'd like you to meet you'd make a great couple

[GNTLGNT]

Talking about specific crazy people who deserve to die, it's a fine line between this and generalising about crazy people. mad doesn't have to mean bad

Most people are ignorant about an issue that is as serious as Civil Rights

...do NOT presume to throw us under the collective bus of "most people"...the IQ's here well exceed room temperature, and we understand more than you're apparently willing to give us or King credit for...as Marsha mentioned, Tom Cullen and Duddits are prime examples of "afflicted" people who are quite heroic....and quite simply, as far as the storyline in 11/22/63 is concerned....it's not a real person, just in case you were unaware-and it's a piece of fiction...you are the one reading bias into it...

[PrisonerNumber6]

Can't we all just forget about it and concentrate on bigger things like the life altering questions that really matter, such as whether or not Doug Sahm of the Sir Douglas Quintet would agree to a walk on cameo in the film adaptation?

For those who don't who Doug Sahm is, click below, and here I apologize in advance. Yes boys and girls, I'm afraid even reasonably mature grown ups like MsMod once thought the following was the literal cat's pajamas.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-VFq6nWvT8

[Moderator]

Yes boys and girls, I'm afraid even reasonably mature grown ups like MsMod once thought the following was the literal cat's pajamas.

Has a good beat....easy to dance to.... :smile2:

[Bryan James]

De Nada

[blunthead]

First before jumping on my back I enjoyed this book, it is obvious Mr King is an excellent writer. However...

Although there is some explanation for characters' mental health problems in this book, they are at the very most extreme end of the spectrum, in the same way that there can be *******s in law and there can be ******* writers etc.

It's drama but the layman reader would want to avoid mental health sufferers reading this book. Being a mental health sufferer is tough so it would be helpful if he cast them in a different light some place in his media following this book- to balance things up.

I have seen this before liberal writers using the cheap device of the ****ed up mental health sufferer who deserves to dieThe bottom line for me here is the idea that Stephen King wishes to vilify, marginalize, or humiliate the mentally ill is ludicrous.

[MyLife4YouSK]

I must admit I don't like seeing posts from just "Guest" either. If they want to discuss...,why don't they just register? OMG that reminds me... I need to register my car and get it inspected! Sheeeit. Birthday was yesterday. Pray for me, that my 2001 Beetle passes, folks! please and thankee sai. :)

[Moderator]

Good luck, CJ!

[~Ally~]

Aww Ceej, I missed your birthday, say sorry. Hope it was a good un'! :love:
I'm sure your Beetle will pass just fine...how could it not with all those King related stickers holding it together??

Anyhoo, in the grand scheme of things Sadie's husband was only a minor character in '63 and I don't feel King developed him enough for us to judge whether he was truly nuts or not. From what I recall he mainly appeared to be a horrid control freak, and was aware of his actions. The reason he deserved to die was as a result of his sadistic behaviour, and not due to living with a mental health issue.

[91rewoT]

Aww Ceej, I missed your birthday, say sorry. Hope it was a good un'! :love:
I'm sure your Beetle will pass just fine...how could it not with all those King related stickers holding it together??

Anyhoo, in the grand scheme of things Sadie's husband was only a minor character in '63 and I don't feel King developed him enough for us to judge whether he was truly nuts or not. From what I recall he mainly appeared to be a horrid control freak, and was aware of his actions. The reason he deserved to die was as a result of his sadistic behaviour, and not due to living with a mental health issue.

Thank you Ally - good explanation!

[Learah Greene]

Hey there, this is my first post on the forum. Pretty interesting subject to start off with too. Just finished and enjoyed this book myself, I'd consider Stephen King a favourite author. I believe 11.22.63 to be a worthy addition to the canon of his best work.

I understand your concerns about the portrayal of mental illness because there's no analysis or specific frame of mind for anyone bar Jake. You seem to have a general issue with the fact that the book carries an insane character who dies after committing a terrible act. In terms of using a character who "deserves to die" because they're insane, well I think you'll find that there's an unfortunate number of suicides in certain areas of mental illness, so an insane figure who ends their own life isn't veering so far off the beaten track. In the real world, would a guy do something like Johnny Clayton, or Frank Dunning? Yes, unfortunately, and even worse goes on all the time, even today when medicine would have you believe we've advanced far from the Sixties. In terms of Frank Dunning, or Lee Oswald deserving to die, well, neither was ever proved insane but the reasons for eliminating them for the threats they posed are made very clear. Sometimes in life (and lots of the time in stories) people are just dangerous, it doesn't mean they're crazy.
I disagree with almost everything you say. Most definitely this part "the layman reader would want to avoid mental health sufferers reading this book" - (the wording is very amusing - I imagined a sherriff on a loudspeaker coaxing the mental health sufferer to put the book down and let the Stephen King fans go) because I think you're implying that people with mental health issues are vulnerable souls with desperately fragile sensitivities. In fact you do a disservice because coping with mental illness requires guts. Lots of em. A Stephen King story is not going to push the great hordes who live with mood- and personality-disorders over the edge. No more so than usual anyway, I think all of us are secretly a tiny bit delusional if we hope that this time, this time we'll turn a doorhandle and there'll be a different world on the other side. Oh okay, a lot delusional. In a fun way.
*Spoiler*
I actually wondered while reading if Johnny Clayton was genuinely crazy, or if his insanity was a deliberate plan he cooked up in revenge. Immediately after Deke and Jake brought a halt to his private knife party with Sadie, Johnny started yelling about having a doctor's cert in the car to prove he was unaccountable for his actions. Crafty. Did he have himself fired and committed in order to set the wheels in motion towards getting away with murder despite an obvious motive? I love, love the way that's absolutely possible; if he started out sane and revenge on Sadie was coldly calculated, he probably ended up nuts by inflicting shock therapy upon himself as part of the admission to the state institution, which explains his suicide, defeating the purpose of the plausible plan. But the beauty of it is that Johnny always had quirks, enough of the paranoid visions, the odd routines and unhealthy moods to say yeah, the guy's got a lick of crazy in there, but not enough to stake your life savings on an epic mindwarp into the psycho zone. His traits are shared by vast numbers of 'sane' people. In another When, Johnny probably never went la-la at all...in the Land of Ago, perhaps his thread was wound so tightly with Kennedy's that he had no choice but to feel his wits slip away. His scientific and statistical interests meant that he should have been a rational man. As an added ingredient to the mastery of suspense and joy of story, the Clayton uncertainty was delicious, and considering all the tantalising teasers in Jake's narrative that hinted at events yet to come, I wouldn't put it past Stephen King to have deliberately left us guessing on that score.

This was kinda long but hell if you read the book, what's a few more words from me.

[muskrat]

I don't know anybody who doesn't claim to have some kinda mental health issue. My sister's ex-husband obviously had a slew of chemical inbalances, which made him want to beat her every chance he got. I wanted to kill him, and damn near did, so I suppose I have mental health issues too. Funky ol world, innit?

Point I wanna make is: so often, folks come here with their cracks about being "offended" by King's "insensitive" writing. My advice: READ SOMETHING ELSE. Or heck, maybe all these snivelers and shiverers can write up a big ol OUTLINE for Uncle Stevie's next work, covering a whole slew of 'no-go' areas, 'forbidden' topics, stuff like that there. Clip his wings, sanitize him, make him politically safe for today's 'easily offended' culture.

Tell you what, I get pretty dang 'offended' when people make these kind of asinine comments. They're dang 'insensitive' is what they are.

[ake!]

I've been in a psych-related hospital wing twice and I loved this book.

[akaspar]

First before jumping on my back I enjoyed this book, it is obvious Mr King is an excellent writer. However...

Although there is some explanation for characters' mental health problems in this book, they are at the very most extreme end of the spectrum, in the same way that there can be *******s in law and there can be ******* writers etc.

It's drama but the layman reader would want to avoid mental health sufferers reading this book. Being a mental health sufferer is tough so it would be helpful if he cast them in a different light some place in his media following this book- to balance things up.

I have seen this before liberal writers using the cheap device of the ****ed up mental health sufferer who deserves to die


Sounds like someone's a bitter troll finding another place to go on another tirade about "liberals" in some form or another... but ever notice how they never have the uh... hootspah... to register? The cowardice anonymity encourages has gotten to a point where its almost humerous to see at this point :).

Brilliant contribution. and by that I mean not.

[Moderator]

Sounds like someone's a bitter troll finding another place to go on another tirade about "liberals" in some form or another... but ever notice how they never have the uh... hootspah... to register? The cowardice anonymity encourages has gotten to a point where its almost humerous to see at this point :).

Brilliant contribution. and by that I mean not.

Not something they'll be allowed to do anymore. Jordan has restored the requirement to register in order to post and those who give false email addresses get bounced as well. :eyebrow:

[bobledrew]

I think it's quite reasonable to ask people to register. Good move, Ms. Mod & Jordan.

[CCAL]

Stephen King is world famous.Anyone who picks up a King book knows exactly whats in it. If you even suspect you might possibly become offended-DROP that book asap. dont be a fool about it-its not going to be a romance or a comedy (altho he CAN be romantic in the story and some situations can be so horrid the impulse to giggle might come about. quick clamp your knuckles to your mouth so the boogyman dont hear you!) We all know whats possible in his books and the language he will probably use, o theres no need to step on a soapbox and whimper poor lil me.jmho

[Shasta]

Not something they'll be allowed to do anymore. Jordan has restored the requirement to register in order to post and those who give false email addresses get bounced as well. :eyebrow:

Yay! :grinning:

I'm sure that will make your job much easier!

[staropeace]

It is a cheap device to come onto this forum unregistered too.

Actually, if Uncle Steve had to refrain from talking about mental disordered folks he would be very stifled in what he could write. The cops could accuse him of writing about crooked deputies, the church could accuse him of making fun of unclean and tainted priests and the list goes on. Your concern is kinda silly ...that is my personal opinion. Don't quote psych to me cause I majored in it. Let Steve just write and be thankful for him.

[icram123]

I :love: Sheemie!!!!!!!!!

[leftrightwriterman3613]

If a writer is afraid they will offend someone, then that person cannot be a truly effective writer. Phobias about various topics, including mental health, run rampant in the world. They are the base and rooted demons of depression, anxiety, frustration, etc. Strange strands grow in the mind of those who suffer, and some, most unfortunately, grow all too wild. I believe that the horror genre of writing brings this to the attention of those who read, and many more readers than one might think gain at least some greater compassion for those who do suffer the most. I believe also, that this is at the crux of what Stephen's work is based upon. He tells the unfortunate truth in many ways, and he does it very well. This is simply my very brief and incomplete take on the basis of his work. Hope you have a good day:)

[sarge73]

We can't be so senseitive about things we read. How could we be avid readers if we r affected by everything we read or hear. Grow a tuff skin.
We all know someone or live with mental illness. In this day and age its hard not to be depressed. Every author would have to make a statement to "balance things up", because there is always someone who will be offended by something someone wrote or said. They write for our entertainment, we can't take it serious it's non-fiction. I know first hand how domestic violence and mental illness can play out. A friend of mine killed a cop, his ex-girl friend, then himself. I know the fall out of the loved ones involved. I also know how he "suffered" w/ mental issues. It's been 2 yrs this month that my nephew took his own life and to top things off a friend killed himself two weeks before christmas this past year. How do we deal with these things happen? All I can say is I do alot of praying everyday, and thank God for every day I have. But I still love to read a good book no matter what might be in it. Stephen King has always been my favorite author and always will be.

[not_nadine]

((sarge))

[sarge73]

I just want to correct myself> I put non-fiction and I mean't fiction. Sorry

[The Darkening]

I agree with you. I have suffered on and off with depression since the latter months of 2009. It can be, and has been, debilitating. There IS extreme stigma attached to not mental illness itself so much as the phrase 'mental illness'. You say it and people assume you're all kinds of crazy. But for a lot of 'sufferers', you wouldn't know it to look at them.

As for the book, I really don't see what the problem is. BUT it is worth considering that people who do those kinds of things DO tend to have issues. It's like, not all abuse victims grow up to abuse. But the ones who do abuse, were most likely abuse victims. Just my own opinion on the matter.

[Robert Gray]

Given the fact that Mr. King has stated that he thinks we are ALL mentally ill (some just hide it better than others), it is kind of idiotic to state that he attempts to send any kind of dark message about the mentally ill in his work. The only pattern of that nature that I have ever gleaned is that there are good people and bad people. Bad people should get their just desserts.

[Auer]

Personally I think Mr. King handles mental health issues in this book very well and in a hauntingly realistic way!! As he always has done and still does.

I myself am diagnosed with PTSD, Major Depressive Disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder, as well as Social Phobia and I didn't find anything offensive in this novel, quite the contrary - even though I am presently reading this novel in a sick-leave (burn-out) and suffering one of the most severe episodes of the above mentioned problems.

[Eric Shawn]

Arc sodiums forever! (Dean Koontz is really fond of them, too.)

[91rewoT]

I really hate when I read a thread title, know exactly how I want to respond, click on it, go to the first page, don't read the date, start Thankin' and Likin', accidentally Thank something I didn't mean to thank, spend 5 minutes trying to figure out how to Unthank, realize the post is 2 years old anyway, continue reading the rest of the posts, get to the last page, click on Quick Reply....then forget what it was I wanted to say.
xD

[not_nadine]

:laugh:

[not_nadine]

Yeah, I one time had the TV and was waiting for something to come on that was posted about. All geared and popcorned up. Then I saw the post was at least 2 years old.

:lfacepalm:

[nygene40]

First before jumping on my back I enjoyed this book, it is obvious Mr King is an excellent writer. However...

Although there is some explanation for characters' mental health problems in this book, they are at the very most extreme end of the spectrum, in the same way that there can be *******s in law and there can be ******* writers etc.

It's drama but the layman reader would want to avoid mental health sufferers reading this book. Being a mental health sufferer is tough so it would be helpful if he cast them in a different light some place in his media following this book- to balance things up.

I have seen this before liberal writers using the cheap device of the ****ed up mental health sufferer who deserves to die

Crackpot!

[Andres96]

Mental health is something which is necessary i mean being mentally fit does matter a lot

[carrie's younger brother]

First before jumping on my back I enjoyed this book, it is obvious Mr King is an excellent writer. However...

Although there is some explanation for characters' mental health problems in this book, they are at the very most extreme end of the spectrum, in the same way that there can be *******s in law and there can be ******* writers etc.

It's drama but the layman reader would want to avoid mental health sufferers reading this book. Being a mental health sufferer is tough so it would be helpful if he cast them in a different light some place in his media following this book- to balance things up.

I have seen this before liberal writers using the cheap device of the ****ed up mental health sufferer who deserves to die

Now that you got that out of the way, I WILL jump on your back...
SK has suffered in the past from substance abuse, which to me ties into mental health issues. His son, Joe Hill, has just come out saying he has suffered from OCD, paranoia and anxiety for the last few years. I seriously doubt SK has anything against mental health sufferers.

Lastly, there are a few threads on these boards in which many of us have come out and admitted we suffer with various mental health issues ourselves, but we still love and read SK.

Thank you.